Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1018 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1018 Friday, 30 August 2002 Today's Topics: Lizard 21SB - Canterbury In reply to Alan Lankin's post about SACD... Cover Art Passion - Hart THraK, Censorship, and the Bears Re: Record Sales Plummet... LIZARD BASHING In the Court of the Fripp-less Crim! More about album covers... Re: *Lizard* and jazz, and classical musics Re: Cheap & Dirty Fripp Sustain Thunderbirding... DVD price of Deja in question "Krautrock" Re: Jazz/Lizard Re: ToaPP over Beat and Lizard over Islands Re: Two of a Perfect Pair Re: Beat Bashing ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 09:53:50 -0500 From: Loren Karnick Subject: Lizard Hi, Glad to see everyone talking music again. Myself, the discussion on Lizard is most interesting because of the very polarized feelings about this work, RF himself indicating his own disappointment with the album. I think that a good portion of this grab bag goes to the unique nature of the album, it really doesn't sound a lot like any other KC album, but clearly has certain of the hallmarks of a KC album. RF's own ambivalence might lie in this unique sound, he might view it as not "King Crimson" enough. I think that his removal of Gordon Haskell from Cadence and Cascade and Bolero on Frame by Frame suggests a clear dissatisfaction with the sound (hoping that it wasn't merely personal animosity, but Haskell himself has indicated that he didn't "get" the music on Lizard, so that seems to be a common thread between RF and Haskell in any event). As for myself, I have always liked the album, but don't really compare it to the rest of the KC work, so I don't run into the problem of ranking it against the others, because to me it really isn't one of the others, though I also have my problems with it. My first problem is that while I find all of the songs interesting, Gordon Haskell's vocals sound like he was holding his nose the whole time, literally. Some singers have a very nasal tone that seeps into their singing and on this album, that's what I hear. The worst part for me is that despite how much I generally dislike that nasal-ness, on these songs, it seems to fit in a creepy, foreboding kind of way. The music itself is also unique with its mad fun house keyboards and horns, and is nothing like anything else KC did, something goofily sinister, not the somewhat ponderously serious tones that inform much of the early KC. Jon Anderson also adds a distinct flavor to the album which also seems to puzzle everyone, his sweet voice not being a flavor that existed with KC at any other time in its existence. While many KC fans find his presence here annoying, for this is what for me clearly takes the album out of the realm of KC, this is the part of the album that makes the album for me. If you listen to other Jon Anderson work, the closest resemblance this has to anything else his piece on Heaven and Earth with Vangelis, one of my personal favorites of his work. I personally would have preferred to have Jon Anderson vocals on the whole album, then there wouldn't be any question that the album isn't really KC, but is some strange progressive amalgam. Maybe in a way the album highlights for Fripp what he saw as a dead end for King Crimson, having taken the music the farthest extent in a direction that he ultimately didn't want to go (comparing Lizards to Islands seems to make the case for me that he had continued in the direction of Lizard only because that was the direction that the rest of the band was going, but that wasn't what he ultimately wanted). For myself, I find the favorite lists interesting because my list would change from month to month. What keeps making me shell out my bucks for KC is the change over time while still keeping the fundamental King Crimson flavor of it all. So this month it may be Thrak, the next LTIA, or the beloved ITCOTCK. Whatever my mood, there is a flavor that pulls me in and keeps me interested and that to me is what the best music does. Having Fun, Loren ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 09:53:46 -0700 From: Robert Cervero Subject: 21SB - Canterbury In response to: >PS - Can we have some more Schizoid Band arguments on ET to warm up for the >tour, please? Not sure what's to argue about. I caught the show at Canterbury Fayre show. They nailed it. Very impressive for a first outing (or at least a first in 30+ years). They dug deep in the treasure trough, playing a rich palette of materials across the first three Crimson albums, Ian's Driver's Eyes, and a wonderful tune penned by Mike called Progress. Jakko impressed -- he had the lyrics, Greg's & Boz's phrasings, and Fripp's manic licks down to a T, and handled the contrasting vocal and guitar time signatures with a breeze. Mike's drumming was solid -- while he doesn't have the energy level of a Pat M., he's a poised, intelligent drummer, in the groove throughout. Peter Giles's bass lines provided the glue and his backing vocals filled gaps nicely. He was enjoying himself, with a huge grin throughout. Was a delight to see Ian Mc and Mel C in dueling woodwinds. The mellotron was missed -- Ian refuses to play an M400 and, as I understand it, they weren't able to get a loaner MKII from Streetley Electronics in good enough working order to bring it to the show. The Roland keys are acceptable though they a mellotron they are not. If fact, Ian's string patch on the Roland keyboard died right before the ending crescendo of Epitaph. Ian was bummed. They regrouped and broke into a roaring close with 21st Century Schizoid Man. The crowd went nuts. The set: Pictures of a City, Catfood, Let there be Light, In the Court of the Crimson King, Progress, Formentera Lady, If I Was, Ladies of the Road, I Talk to the Wind, Epitaph, 21st Century Schizoid Man. Best performance, IMO: Formentera Lady. I had my own "good fairy" Crimson experience after the show. After the closing Jack Bruce set (with Vernon Reid, who was hot), I quickly made my way to the M2 en route to Heathrow. After driving some 30 miles, I ducked into the first petrol station I could find, right off the freeway. As I pulled up to the pump, lo and behold, there was Mike Giles pumping gas. Grinning ear to ear, I hopped out of the car to congratulate him on the wonderful show and then I see Ian McDonald standing next to Mike's SUV, pensively staring, seemingly taking in everything that had just happened. I've gotten to know both and they seemed as stunned as I was to bump into each other near midnight in the middle of nowhere in SE England. I congratulated them on a stellar performance and they seemed pleased, if for nothing else that someone would fly in from the states to see their act. We chatted for a few minutes about the performance and what's up for the future. As they were driving off and I was beginning to pump gas, Mike rolled down the window and with a warm smile on his face said "you'll have to come to another show; it'll only get better". I envy the good folks of the UK -- you're in for a real treat. I just hope they come stateside, which seems a possibility. Got my fingers crossed. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 13:15:35 -0500 From: rex dot fermier at exeloncorp dot com Subject: In reply to Alan Lankin's post about SACD... >Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 17:36:03 -0400 >From: Alan Lankin >Subject: Re: SACD > With all the KC Remastering going on, anyone know if the recordings > will be pressed in the new SACD format? > - CDCDB at aol dot com Just how many times will people have to buy the same material again (and again and...) ?? Alan Lankin When I can turn up the volume and hear Fripp's heart beat! Rex ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 19:28:11 +0100 From: "Linda Crumlin" Subject: Cover Art For the long term fans, there is no contest here. I remember walking past a record shop which had the whole window decked out with the (12" by 12") cover of ITCOTCK. To a 14 year old Beatles fan, this was frightening/exciting/totally new/mind blowing - a BIG IMPACT! In fact, exactly the same impact as hearing Schizoid Man on a sampler album (remember them?) which I was given for my birthday (13th Jan. same as Crimson - how's that for karma?). Whilst this has never been my favourite album - to my ears the later stuff was much more interesting - I've never forgotten that scary display. It was that sight that got me curious about the band and 30 odd years down the line I have never been tempted to "move on" although my wife might be only too happy if I did! If we are going to have non-PC descriptions of types of music, can I suggest that U2 play "shamrock"? All the best Alan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 11:51:42 -0700 (PDT) From: William Heinrichs Subject: Passion - Hart Lots of banter about PG's work of Passion lately. Most comments are positive. If you enjoy Passion, you may enjoy Mickey Hart's work on Supralingua. The two works have similarities: rhythm/percussion oriented, multiethnic influences, original work. Check it out at... http://www.gdradio.com/allworldradio/ Obligatory KC Content: Bobby Weir tried to get Robert Fripp onstage during a Ratdog concert awhile back and Weir is/was band mates with Mickey Hart. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 20:08:34 +0000 From: "satan's right hand" Subject: THraK, Censorship, and the Bears Hello all--3 quick things: 1. Has anyone heard anything lately about Thrak coming out on vinyl? I really looked forward to this since my cd is scratched to hell(and I don't want to buy another cheap piece of garbage--such is the cd form for me). 2. I have about a one in 4 posting percentage for what gets posted here. Now, because I feel I'm at least of average intelligence and since I don't disrespect the other ETers, I will say that I feel like I've been censored, not edited, and thus have had my voice completely taken away. That's fine. I understand that is the way it is on this newsgroup; though I completely disagree--I can't change it. I've decided to keep subscibing because to not do so would be to admit defeat(this was a hard decision). [ I think your posts didn't get into ET because they were in HTML-only format, which we can't process. -- Toby ] 3. Can anyone please tell me what the Bears sound like. Are they more akin to solo Ade stuff or what? What instruments do they play. They're coming to Milwaukee and I need to figure if it's worth spending the money(as I don't have much to throw around). Thanks everyone who answers...you're sun-loving ape ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 20:27:33 +0000 From: "satan's right hand" Subject: Re: Record Sales Plummet... Hi everyone again. I am sure that many of us are involved in file sharing, but I wonder how many of us can really say that we don't buy albums after hearing the files online. I mean, personally, I feel that as long people aren't making money off of file-swapping I'm all for it especially with live recordings(since it opens MY ears to many new artists I wouldn't have heard of)but regardless, hearing music makes me want to hold that album in my hands. It makes me want to fawn over the artwork and info inside. When I download music it kind of makes me feel a little empty because there's a sort of detached quality to it. There's not the liveliness or the visual aspect of buying the album and cranking it on the stereo(until it's burned) while unfolding the (for me) vinyl cover and feeling like I have something. So, anyway, I was wondering if that's the way anybody else feels or if I'm just mentally attached to physical items or way too into music. Lastly--while I don't feel artists DESERVE anything--as long they are putting their art out there for people and it's something I can relate to, I feel good about giving artists something in return(whether it's my hard-earned money or verbal encouragement). So with that in mind I buy the albums as a sort of bargain or something. What do you guys think? the sun-loving ape: jeramaya "Seems like there's always more duty/Maybe that's the beauty." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 13:57:06 -0700 From: "Moshier, John T" Subject: LIZARD BASHING While everyone is busy bashing Beat and Lizard, I've got to ask if anyone else finds "Happy Family" as wretched as I do? It might be the least representative Crimson song out there. For me, it casts a pall over the entire album, not withstanding some very enjoyable moments in the Lizard Suite. Maybe Peter Gabriel wrote it................. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 23:11:18 +0100 From: "Stephen King" Subject: In the Court of the Fripp-less Crim! I saw 21st Century Schizoid Band at Canterbury Fayre on 24 August and very good they were too despite a touch of first gig nerves (OK so they made a few mistakes which they recovered from very professionally). Epitaph, and ITCOTCK were at least as good as the performances on Epitaph and I was nearly overwhelmed with emotion and joy at hearing these songs live at last!! However, I Talk to the Wind was the highpoint of the set for me . Ladies of the Road and Formentera Lady were a surprise and on the latter Mel Collins taunted us by playing an excellent sax solo that took us to within a hair's breadth of the intro of A Sailor's Tale - a lot of us were wondering will they won't they.... The rhythm section of Mike Giles (drums) and Peter Giles (bass and braces) were rock solid and pinned the whole set down faultlessly. The guitarist Jakko isn't RF but he does have a voice that reminds you of Greg Lake, and once he is more familiar with the repertoire I'm sure he'll be fine. Mel and Ian on saxes, flute and keyboards were amazing. Having Ian and Mel in the same band - WOW!! Loved it fellas try and catch you later in the tour!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 00:08:19 +0000 From: "Marcelo Rodriguez" Subject: More about album covers... Hi ET people! I have read a lot about KC's album cover in the newsletter. Certainly, I do agree with most of the opinions...and to continue with the matter, it seems to me that most of them clearly reflect the kind of music you are going to find, as they are as introspective, intimate and complex in concept as the music itself. I remember my first KC musical experiences, and the covers represented the mistery of the music I was about to discover. Both (music and artwork) went together, as a whole. Something similar happens with the ECM records (which I love a lot!), or with those designed by Hipgnosis during the 60's and the 70's (take Pink Floyd, EL&P, and others) showing that for these bands, cover works are not a minor detail when it comes to issuing new material. All the best Marcelo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 20:40:08 EDT From: JohnWylam at aol dot com Subject: Re: *Lizard* and jazz, and classical musics Hi, Folks -- I've been following the posts concerning *Lizard,* and wanted to chime in -- folks who've said that jazz fans might find it most appealing have a point; fans who also loved the Softs (I'm certainly in that camp) probably cleaved toward *Lizard* as well. I find certain aspects problematic, tho -- while Haskell's voice is soothing, it didn't seem to find its way into the philosophical construct of this music. Also, I wasn't thrilled with Andy McCullough's drum work, for the most part; his reliance on the snare didn't demonstrate the depth of ideas Bruford would later bring (tho in the below-cited instance I feel quite differently). Now, I very much want to be fair here, because I haven't yet heard the CD version and current technology has the constant capacity to surprise me (and teach me in quite Gurdjieffan terms my capacity for idiocy). Something else -- this music has such a classical sound that the snare emphasis becomes more defensible as a strategy. It's not just "Bolero," but across the album. As for "Bolero," this is without doubt my favorite piece on the disc. A part of my love for this stems from the marvelous deconstruction of form that begins with McCullough's straight-forward statement of the rhythm....and, well, as you all know, it breaks open like the stone that reveals a rose. I'd never thought of the junction between classical and jazz in quite that way until the day I first heard "Bolero," now decades ago, but there you are. And so the learning continues. Much Cheer, All. John Wylam ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 10:53:43 +1000 From: "keir needham" Subject: Re: Cheap & Dirty Fripp Sustain In reply to wviland in ET #1016 on sustain, I have an E-bow, given to me as a present but I think they go for about AU$200 (not cheap, but boy is it dirty!). This is essentially a battery powered electro magnetic field which when applied to the string causes it to vibrate indefinately. I know fripp has used one on occasion and I find it to be the most awesome device for creating long sustain. You just hold it to your guitar and your fretting hand does all the work. P.S. Did anyone know RED uses every note in twelve tone at least once during the song! - mind blowing. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 21:10:15 EDT From: GenoTT at aol dot com Subject: Thunderbirding... All right, since it's been asked, I'll speak up. KCNN radio has been playing all three (!) parts of Pat & Trey's 'Thunderbird' suite - a total of 40 minutes or so. And I have to say I like it more and more. It's not the kind of thing they'd just release an album of as-is, but it's a nice fascinating groove nonetheless. Imagine.. well, ProjeKct 3 without Fripp. The overall sound reminds me of the Heaven & Earth disc. Pat just thumps along with some steady beats, playing around with the electronic trappings from time to time, while Trey adds a nice floating bass line. (His tone reminds me of "Superbottomfeeder" - it's really sweet to hear.) Some occasional high-end is present, but it's largely a bass thing. Not much else to say.. just some straight jams. I do think it's good. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 21:27:26 -0700 From: "David C." Subject: DVD price of Deja in question For Dale Cleary. Don't take this the wrong way but $100 for any DVD is highway robbery. I paid nearly $50 for the laserdisc version prior to the release of Deja . Regardless of where you live you can buy it from DGM for a modest price. As for the DVD I paid around $20 for it, the average price being $20-30 on music DVD's. It was made well known that Deja Vroom was the DVD version of the previously released import laser disc from the Japanese performance in early October 95. The laser disc was not domestically available so Fripp and Co. obtained the rights to release this domestically in the DVD format. This is not a marketing re-release scam. This was made domestically available because the laser disc was going out and DVD was in. If you want a marketing scam take a look at the amount of greatest hits CD's that were released between 1983 to present. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 00:44:14 EDT From: PeterSchaut at aol dot com Subject: "Krautrock" Greetings fellow Elephant Talkers! I would like to share some of my thoughts in regard to the responses to my original post on the word "kraut." Some of you have said that it is the accepted term for a genre of music. Isn't music considered as an (the) international language? There is nothing wrong with identifying where an artist comes from, but to place borders on the music itself is inevitably condemning the art to certain prejudices. Though it's not always easy to avoid this, and sometimes nearly impossible (as is the case if art is inspired by, say, religion), it shouldn't be burdened by superfluous labels. Peter Gabriel's WOMAD was an attempt, and to some degree successful, to break down these barriers. I see the music of the artists which have been labeled as "Krautrock" falling into several different genres; The Scorpions - Hard Rock/Heavy Metal, Kaftwerk - Electronica/Techno, Nina Hagen - Punk Rock, Nena - Pop Rock, Can - Experimental/Prog, Einsturtzende Neubauten - Industrial/Experimental Rock, etc., I think I've made my point. As you can see, all these German artists are, for the most part, quite different from one another in their styles of music, albeit some do share certain similarities (e.g., the use of found sounds by both Can and Neubauten). I am not familiar with the Faust song Krautrock, and I don't know in what context they used the word. However, it is, I believe, fare to say that it's acceptable for a German to use the word kraut just as it's acceptable for a black artist to use the "N" word. It was also mentioned, by at least one person, that the term "Krautrock" was used as the title of a book on the subject as well as on at least one compilation album which was released by a German record company, and that the term was in fact (?) coined by them. This doesn't give it validity, or for that matter make it less offensive. If we've learned anything from Mr. Fripp , it's that record companies have no scruples when it comes to making $$$$! I admit that most Germans could probably care less if the term "Krautrock" is used or not, but, for me, and I'm sure for many others, the word "Kraut" is connected to some less than pleasant memories. Therefor it would be a pity i f something like this would tarnish one of life's great pleasures, music. So, if you must put a label on it, then why not simply German Rock or Deutsch Rock? Finally, I would like to say, I am interested in hearing other people's thoughts, but, although it is a thought provoking topic, and ET is the perfect forum for this, I hope this topic doesn't get dragged out ad nauseam . VROOM, VROOM! Sincerely, Peter "You can blow out a candle But you can't blow out a fire Once the flame begins to catch The wind will blow it higher" Peter Gabriel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 03:06:34 -0400 (EDT) From: david craig Subject: Re: Jazz/Lizard > The big difference is the absence of swing/the blues. Fripp's > uniqueness as a guitarist stems largely from his refusal to rely on > blues-based cliche, instead developing his own individual vocabulary. > Whilst this approach is something which makes KC's music unique, I > suspect it is also what leads many to regard them as 'cold'/'soulless' > etc - one has to take the trouble to learn a new language in order to > appreciate it. Both obvious, and deeply perceptive, all at once. In other words, you said something true which has not often been said so clearly. Well done! David Craig ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 03:15:29 -0400 (EDT) From: david craig Subject: Re: ToaPP over Beat and Lizard over Islands > I agree that Larks III doesn't hold up to its peers. Wow. It's a longer road. But my lord, the places that piece has taken me .... David Craig ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 03:24:32 -0400 (EDT) From: david craig Subject: Re: Two of a Perfect Pair > 1. ITCOTKC / ITWOP > 2. Lizard/ Islands > 3. Lark's/ Starless > 4. Red/ Exposure > 5. USA/ Earthbound > 6. Discipline/ Beat/ 3 of a PP > 7. Vroom/ Thrak > 8. TCOL/ Level 5 This is fun. Spot on! David Craig ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 03:45:08 -0400 (EDT) From: david craig Subject: Re: Beat Bashing ... ... ... .... zzt%* zzzt%&%* zzzzzzzzt* David Craig ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1018 *********************************