Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1017 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1017 Friday, 30 August 2002 Today's Topics: aah teenagers. Apples & Oranges KC ranking? mmmm...! Beat Bashing MTV News steals "Red" VU Meter from King Crimson Album Pat Mastelloto Re: the appeal of Lizard Re: whats the big idea, is this a fan newsletter or what? Re: do the 30th ann. editions make a difference? What's in a Name? Re: LTiA live/studio Best/Worst KC Live Recordings? all-clear by a kraut Re: Islands cover Krautrock COPYRIGHT DEBATE: Invitation to contribute in defense of beat ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 15:51:42 +0800 From: Tim Donovan Subject: aah teenagers. funny i just read one of the postings from a 13 year-old crimson fan and found it refreshing that there's some young ears out there. it reminded me of an incident when i was 15 at a crimson show on the three of perfect pair tour (do the math) at merriweather post in maryland. me and couple of friends got to merriweather early and were wandering around and found ourselves at the hotel where all the bands stay and we started up a hacky-sack game (i know, i know) in front of the hotel. why ask why. then shortly after 2 mercedes pull up and fripp and belew are in the first one and bruford and levin are the next one. fripp and belew got out first and belew looked like he was sick or something and fripp walked right by us. i stood there with my jaw dropped and asked fripp for his autograph and he gave me a dead panned look and shook his head no and kept on walking. dissed dude! then bruford and levin came up to us and started up a conversation which made up for the fripp diss. we had on yes t-shirts from their tour that same year and bruford was asking us how they were. funny, bruford is asking us how yes was. so yeah we talked to them for a few minutes and got autographs. about an hour later we're still near the hotel and we see fripp come out and walk down the road so we followed about 50 yards behind him seeing where he was going. we had this boom box so we started blaring larks' tounges part 1 from the box as we kept following him. eventually he went into a restaurant and we hung out for a minute and then walked around peering into the windows of the restaurant to see if we could spot him. finally we saw him sitting at a table holding a book up in front of his face reading and sipping tea. he's probably thinking "please let these little bastards get the hell outta here now". and we were thinking "ahh fuck him we're outta here". aah to be young again. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 02:16:55 -0700 From: "H b" Subject: Apples & Oranges Friends, I don't understand the comparison between Jobson and ENO. Sure, Jobson plays an instrument and as Brian has stated he's one of the greatest 'non-musicians'.. As to who "actually creates music... PLEASE! I am a huge ENO fan and have been greatly influenced by him Musically, Philosophically, Artistically and in ways this meager language can not describe. Can't really say the same for old Eddie, poor bloke.. He has played with some greats (Zappa, Jethro Tull, etc), but without much impact.ENO may not be a "virtuoso", but this certainly is NOT a requirement for mind-altering, life-changing, consciousness-raising experience! There's not too many 'artists' who have created/given rise to a genre of music. Eddie who? Peace man, Dr Howard Conformity is an adjunct to fear - Carl Jung ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:06:37 +0000 From: "Marcelo Rodriguez" Subject: KC ranking? mmmm...! Hi everybody at KC, In many editions I have seen messages about KC's best records based on personal tastes and impressions. In this respect, I would like to point out that, by doing so, we are forgetting some interesting points we must consider when it comes to analyzing KC's records. I mean, It's very difficult so say that one record is better than another, as there have been several line-ups, styles and tendencies during KC's musical development. How could you possibly compare records like those of the '80, like Discipline or Beat, to others like Larks' Tongues, or Starless & Bible Black?. In my opinion, there have been different stages, with different records in each. For instance, the first records (like In the Court..., In the wake of Poseidon, Lizard, etc) are not easy to classify, as there have been so many changes in the personnel that we don't find one "guideline" in the style, just as if they are still trying to find the right direction to follow, trying to find the band's personality. Of course, we can always perceive the unique style and command of Robert Fripp, and we find great songs mixed with others which could be described as "more discrete". In the second stage (as I see it, musically the richest one), we find "Larks' Tongues, S&BB and Red. Here I can see a great progress in the style and development of musical skills, and the most daring, complex and beautiful compositions (take "Fracture", "Starless", "The talking drum","Book of Saturday", etc). THe third stage (the '80's: Discipline, Three of a Perfect Pair and Beat) is much different from the others; also the times have changed and Brit ProgRock is not the same as in the '70's. The members have changed, although as good as ever (always Robert Fripp ahead, as usual), and so the music. But we see an intentiton of keeping music at the highest level of quality, and we also find great compositions, such as "Sartori in Tangier", "Industry", "The Sheltering Sky", etc. Finally, the ninenties: Thrak and the following records, with a double- trio lineup, (a great musical challenge!), the ultimate Frippertronics, and beautiful soundscapes. To sum up, I would like to say that we can choose great records from different stages, but it's quite difficult to mix them all and to create a rank, as they belong to different times, different musical background, different lineups, etc. Thanks again Toby and Co. for the good job! Keep it up!. Marcelo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:58:01 -0600 From: "Mary" Subject: Beat Bashing In ET 1009 I wrote, >Beat This album has nothing that I care for. In ET 1011 Scott Steele added, >The beauty of this world is that everyone is different. I for one am very >glad we live in the same world as Neurotica, The Howler, Sartori in Tangier, >and especially Requiem. And none of the other tracks are all that terrible. I agree that is one of the great things about this world is we all have different experiences and opinions, that's what makes the world go round, but all I talk about, with any certainty, are my own inclinations. So, in all fairness, I put on my 24-bit remastered Beat CD and listened very carefully. And Scott, I especially like the fact you were listening to Firesign Theater! I didn't set out to bash Beat or any other album. But. when you rank twelve items, they can't all be number one, and something has to be at, or near, the bottom of the list. 1. Neal and Jack and Me. The album opener is normally the catchiest, heaviest or most memorable tune (if that's true here that that doesn't say much for this album). But this is only an okay song. The thing I like best is AB's guitar interjections. 2. Heartbeat. Zzzzzzzzzzzz. The backwards guitar is nice, but not a great improvement on what we heard on Islands. The worst thing you can do in pop is make boring music, because that is the worst of all (And yes this is a pop song; not rock, not avant-garde). 3. Sartori in Tangier. Not a bad little tune ... Pretty good in fact. 4. Waiting Man. Not bad, but really not that good. AB's guitar part that starts around 3:10 is the best thing about this song. 5. Neurotica. Not much more interesting than most of this album. Lots of nice Belew noises (and Fripp sounds), but really not much of a song. 6. Two Hands. Finally a good song! Good singing and guitar from Belew. and an especially fine effort from Bill and Tony. 7. The Howler. I like Belew's solo that starts at 2:54, but that's about it. 8. Requiem. A Frippertronics performance with overdubs. Bruf and Levin have nice parts with some neat soloing from the guitar guys. So, perhaps I misjudged Beat, and should amend my opinion to say. "This album has very little that I care for; I like 'Sartori in Tangier' and 'Two Hands,' and, to a lesser degree, 'Requiem.' There's some fine playing throughout the album." While Discipline seemed more Fripp's album, Belew shines more on Beat and Three of a Perfect Pair. Anyway, thatis how I see it. Would anyone say one of these two albums is largely Tony and Bills? I would still place Beat twelfth in the twelve studio albums, although I wouldn't rank number eleven on my list, Three of a Perfect Pair, much higher. Bill Jacobson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:36:10 -0700 From: "S McKillop" Subject: MTV News steals "Red" VU Meter from King Crimson Album A few days ago I glanced at MTV2 during their news snippet. During the end was a picture of a VU meter numbered 1 to 8, with 7 and 8 colored red and the needle just below the 8 line. I immediately recognized it as the meter on the cover of "Red", the most powerful studio album of the '70s Crimson. MTV put their logo in the middle of the meter. Saw it again today (2002-8-28) on both MTV & MTV2 news. Today the meter level was moving like a real one does as the music changes, sometimes it would go past 8. Plagiarism is flattery; maybe Kurt Loder (who wrote a book about Captain Beefheart) isn't the only guy at MTV with a clue. A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous, got me? -- Don Van Vliet ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 20:31:20 -0400 From: "J.L.Horton" Subject: Pat Mastelloto I wonder if anyone would care to share some candid evaluations of The ConstruKction of Light: I've been trying to get myself to like it for, well, a while now: and while there are tracks I do like (FraKctured: although all this "K" business is slightly annoying: what are they, Kafka fanatics? lol) I find it a terrible sounding CD: the drums seem awfully messy to me: I'm not in any way slighting Mastelotto for not being Bruford, but I wonder if his sound is appropriate to the resonant complexity of Crimson? I have just ordered the 4CD ProjeKcts set so I will withhold my judgment until I've heard his work on that. Any thoughts are welcome. Listen to KCCC#19 and you will hear Pat on fire! Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 13:54:30 -0400 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: the appeal of Lizard >Ultimately, I want to know what other people find so >interesting about this album because I've tried to discover it on my own >without success. I find this an interesting question... The one thing that stands out when I think of Lizard is the song "Cirkus". I think this is just an fantastic song. Everything about it thrills me, and also chills me to the bone. But after that song is finished it is rare that I play the album much longer. I do also like Indoor Games, but I don't really think its one of their best songs. "Happy Family" is an interesting listen... once in a long while, but the voice affects really start to irritate me to the point where I ask myself "why am I listening to this?". "Lady of the Dancing Water"... eh, to be honest with you I listen to this album so little that I dont even remember what I do or don't like about this song. and "Lizard", well it's definately an interesting listen and I do like the song, certain parts more than others. I don't know where to rank this album, but when it comes down to it the only important thing to me is the fact that I only listen to the first song. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:17:33 -0400 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: whats the big idea, is this a fan newsletter or what? >Trey & Pat improvising for approx. 15 minutes in the studio, and NOBODY >here that claims to be a die-hard Crimson fan finds that worthy of >mention/discussion/praise/condemnation?!?!?!? I wholeheartedly agree with you about this list not always showing the enthusiasm they should. Unfortunately, many of the things you mentioned as a big surprise I didn't get to see. I didn't get a chance to hear the Trey and Pat improv thing, nor do I check the websites that much. I wasn't even aware that there is a songlist available. Perhaps these things mean that I am not a DIEHARD Crimhead, though my friends might disagree. However, despite personally being apart of this problem, I also notice more indepth discussion of things non-Crim than things Crim a good deal of the time. However, had you posted this songlist I would have responded with my thoughts. What can I say, I barely get time to read this newsletter. The only news I've recently checked for is the release date of the new KC remasters. I'll have to work on that. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:26:57 -0400 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: do the 30th ann. editions make a difference? >although the vocals in Lizard are buried a bit in the mix for my taste, >especially the Jon Anderson vocal work. Is the remaster a vast improvement >on the earlier release, or are there only minor improvements? Yes, these are very specifically some questions I also had about the 30th Anniversary editions. I have the 1989 (??) remasters, and for instance the vocals on Lizard and Islands can be very soft and muffled, but it seems as though its not intentionally that bad, its just poor sound quality. It is actually very frustrating. What comes to mind are the songs "Cirkus", Ladies of the Road", and most of the other songs in fact. Do the new remasters make a difference, or is the only reason to buy them their supperior packaging? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 02:31:10 EDT From: NajiBaji at aol dot com Subject: What's in a Name? Endless comparisons, identity crisis after crisis, false expectations, and let downs-All could have been avoided if the Maestro took the King's Crown, stomped on it and given it to BB as an allsort to bang away at. With all due respect, the King should have been given a decent funeral and let Discipline or whatever find its way properly. Instead, we are left to sing the dirges, write the obituaries, hold seances, and entertain whatever ghosts we conjure up. The Maestro would not have to grumble at Poles. Ignoring business aims and caving in, a little DISCIPLINE could have gone a long way. From then on in, it could be said that even the Emperor didn't know which clothes he had on. Yet who among the faithful would have pointed that out. The PROJEKTS flat out are more interesting. Trey is Crimmer than thou. The spirit of KC coming unbeckoned...what abunch of hooey as they say in ADE's neck of the woods. This spirit always come rushing in at the sound of banknotes heartily rustled in the dead of day. While the posse is saddling up and heading out of Nashville, maybe the new album could be called the Traveling Frippburys. Now that would be entertainment. Maybe make the Schizoid Man smile. So is it back to the lists folks...comparing Babe Ruth to Roger Maris? At least Roger got an asterisk. ADA is still yet to get his... later, [ May I respectully suggest that you have a little lie down. :-) -- Toby ]] Dave ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:49:04 -0400 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: LTiA live/studio >5) LTIA. Here, we're starting to get a bit of a break between the quality >of the studio recording and the best live performances. The best live >performances of "Talking Drum" seguing into "LTIA2" send chills up your >spine, but the album really doesn't quit hit the same intensity. And "Easy >Money" and "Lament" are available in better live performances too. Good >songs, mixed bag of an album. I can agree with that, however that isn't to say that the studio tracks aren't incredible. Sometimes I prefer the studio version of Easy Money to some of the live ones.... sometimes. But you also can't hear everything live. Being more clear and clean, the album versions give you the ability to hear all the same details that mhgt be left out or just inaudible at a live show. And yet all that being said, KC never, in my opinion, preformed "LTiA part 1" as good again after the studio. There is no better version of this song. I mean, I havent heard every live show they've ever done, nor have I heard all the bootlegs taht are out their.. but I own all the 70s KCCC discs, The Great Deciever, The Night Watch, and everything else available, and out of all those I have not found a live version of this song that comes close to satisfying me after the studio version. Sure, some parts really shine when performed live, and you have to give allowance for more intense bass pounding and guitar screetching and such, but all the elements are not their and I'm not even sure if the song was ever performed in its entire 13:35 minute form live. Which is a shame. Perhaps its just the missing violin solo, or the opening bells and percussion beats, or the haunting and sinister sounding voice samples at the end... Whatever it is that is missing in the live versions, these things made the song the masterpiece it is. Despite how incredible KC is live, and their ability to bring their songs to a new level live, LTiA remains perfect and complete, never, in my eyes to be improved upon. I think something else to consider for people who name this incarnation as their favorite but don't think this album their best is that the bulk of the live material was LTiA, with every song performed more often then not. There must be more performances of Exiles, Easy Money and LTiA part 2 than any other KC songs. correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not making a definate statement. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:54:03 -0400 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Best/Worst KC Live Recordings? >I'm finding the ongoing discussion of favorite studio albums sort of odd, >because I find the studio albums to be generally less satisfying than the >best of the live albums. You make a very good point, and I think it is stange that it has been an overlooked topic of discussion. KC is known to be a superior live band, and their live perfomances being so intensely sought after, you'd think we might be more interested in reviewing the live material they've presented to us. Now, would such a list include the KCCC releases? There are pros and cons to this. Con being that there are so many and more to come.Pro being that for instance: I would rate The Summit Studios release among the best of ALL KC live material, proving the potential the Islands band actually had (something that might be overlooked if the KCCC releases were not included). Well, I'm going to have to take some time and put serious thought into this, but I'd love to hear everyone elses thoughts. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:32:47 +0200 From: Roderich von Detten Subject: all-clear by a kraut good evening hippies, hi lee, alter schwede!...you really do not have to apologize - i am sure that almost every kraut...errrr, german is as confident and capable of showing self-mockery, or humour, as Faust have been years ago. political-correctness is misplaced in this case of a terminus-technicus. best regards, roderich ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 09:44:44 -0000 From: Richard dot REES-JONES at nao dot gsi dot gov dot uk Subject: Re: Islands cover Where can I see a copy of the US cover of 'Islands' on the web? I've only ever seen the UK (nebula) cover. I've checked the KC discography on ET without success. Richard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 13:37:01 +0200 From: Haible Juergen Subject: Krautrock Lee wrote: "I'm now honestly curious to know if the word is still in common use by Germans. Whether it is or not, I apologize for any offense." I happen to be German, and I surely do *not* take offense. "Kraut" was indeed a cussword for Germans in WW2 - but that was in the first half of the last century! We're not at war with England and France anymore. (;->) "Krautrock" was meant in a derogatory way, too, but rather in a way of looking pitifully at German group's attempt to copy their American or British paragons. Which in fact it was, in the beginning. Later, with the advent of "kosmische" music (Popol Vuh, Klaus Schulze, Tangerine Dream), the situation changed, and original music from Germany started to become influential for others. (NDW, and all the modern techno stuff.) "Krautrock" is a word much as "Prog", which can be used in derogatory way by those who hate it, or with self-confidence by those who love it. Peronally I'm differentiating between Krautrock groups which are obviously a special kind of rock groups (imitating their international paragons), and the "kosmic" and "electronic" stuff that followed, because it's such a different style. For instance, Klaus Schulze was a drummer in (Kraut?) rock bands, and then decided to try new music, and new instruments (early synthesizers). That kind of electronic stuff is the other category of music I love (next to prog), and the one which I play myself. However, I also like genuine some Krautrock stuff such as "Anyone's Daughter". That was the time of cheap electronic pianos and string ensemble keyboards ... JH. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 14:22:08 +0100 From: Sandy Starr Subject: COPYRIGHT DEBATE: Invitation to contribute I hope Toby won't object to this posting, but I know from reading ET that some ETers are interested in how the internet affects copyright regulation and the music industry. The publication that I work for, spiked, has just launched an online public debate about copyright. The question around which the debate is posed is: 'Is self-regulation a legitimate approach to protecting copyright on the internet?' The debate is funded by the European Commission research project RightsWatch, and anybody is entitled to contribute to it (although, like ET, the forum is a moderated one). The debate has been initiated by two positioning papers - one by myself, and one by composer David Stoll. The debate can be found at: http://www.spiked-online.com/copyright I urge everybody with a stake and/or an interest in this issue - musicians, consumers of music, internet users and others - to contribute to this debate, and make your views known. Since debate contributions are being scrutinised by a European Commission research project, your views will have consequence. Also, contributions to the debate will be permanently archived at the same URL. Feel free to email me privately if you would like to know more. PS I saw the Schizoid Band's debut performance at the Canterbury Fayre, and they were GREAT. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 08:11:04 -0500 From: "Bergeon, Thomas C SEPCO" Subject: in defense of beat "D. Chinn wrote > In defense of Beat "Beat" rules. How can it not? Some of Ade's most emotional and complete songwriting (totallly blowing out *anything* on "THRAK" or "TCOL", bar "One Time"), some fantastically sharp and intense playing, and remarkable instrumentation. I'd even venture the opinion that it's been Ade's finest record to date... It may have been hell to make, but it's heaven to listen to, with less production goop than "3OAPP" and a better balance of words and music than the admittedly peerless "Discipline". It may suffer a little from "sequelitis.... I wholeheartedly agree that Beat is a wonderful piece, and at times I enjoy it more than Discipline. The playing is first rate, with some of Adrian's best lyrics. The band is very tight, and the first side of this record was perfectly balanced, the second, an omen to the TOAPP upheavel to come. Why does this record get neglected in the Crim cannon? Perhaps because it wasn't nearly as revolutionary as it's predecessor Discipline. To me the band gells more here, and the song structure is more relaxed and natural. The interlocking guitar parts sound less structured than on Discipline, and Brufords wonderful conterpoint drumming seems more integral to the song here (Satoria, Waiting Man). Yes Heartbeat sounds a little hokey lyrically, but compare it with what else was out there at the time. The songs flow nicely from one to the other, and Satoria has to be one of the most engaging instumental pieces in the Crim catalog. I really enjoyed seeing the tour associated with Beat, some of the songs were expanded nicely in the live setting. I feel the album measures up nicely, even if it is largely ignored by most Tom ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1017 *********************************