Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1016 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1016 Thursday, 29 August 2002 Today's Topics: NEWS: Peter Gabriel thread is dead the END of the "One More Red Nightmare" controversy The "Red" cymbal story from, direct from Bill Bruford Re: 'One More Red Nightmare' cymbal sound "Krautrock" - apologies Re: further thoughts on "Lizard", etc. Record sales plummet 7% sauer on KRAUTROCK? Re: the banjo/the favorites/beat/psychedelics PG Revisited Islands Sleeve/McDonald & Giles Re: Going South, Tool, Gabriel Cheap & Dirty Fripp Sustain Lost classics, psychedelic experience, and censorship Forward-looking Crim Cymbal Sound in "Nightmare" Hello fellow KC fans The KC Amsterdam gig 11-23-1973 Re: SACD Funky "One More Red Nightmare" cymbal ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 00:24:17 -0400 From: "Toby Howard" Subject: NEWS: Peter Gabriel thread is dead Hello everyone. Due to popular demand, the thread about all things Gabriel-esque is now dead (for a while, at least). Likewise any discussion about cymbals, broken or otherwise. Oh and PLEASE don't send HTML-only mail to ET. It makes an awful mess. Cheers Toby ET Moderator ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 00:24:17 -0400 From: "D Way" Subject: the END of the "One More Red Nightmare" controversy It IS a broken crash cymbal: http://billbruford.com/bill/faq.html#19 Now, something else was driving me crazy about all this. I know for a fact that this info used to be on the ET FAQ page (that's how I found out about the cymbal originally), but, curiously, it isn't there now - time for an update? (Another side note: I've noticed a LOT of some recent questions have long since been answered on the FAQ page. Toby et al. have done a remarkable job keeping this up-to-date (except, strangely, the Bruford cymbal thing ;) - check it out! :) Still trying to figure out "Lizard", David omeganalpha at yahoo dot com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 23:26:03 -0700 From: Jym Dingler Subject: The "Red" cymbal story from, direct from Bill Bruford In reply to R. Lumenta's and Scott Ranalli's postings regarding that unusual cymbal sound from "red," herewith the details from Mr. Bill Bruford: "The cymbal was featured on 'One More Red Nightmare' from King Crimson's 'Red' album, and has quietly become a legend. I found it in the rehearsal room trash can, deposited there by the group in the room before us. It was turned up on one side in an effort to get it to fit in the bin, like an Australian bush hat; it had definitely seen better days. It was a 'foreign made' Zilco Standard cymbal imported into the UK by Arbiter Co. Ltd., and, before you ask, I have no idea what happened to Zilco. Anyway, it's maltreatment had bequeathed it this fabulous trashy sound with a very short, fast decay. It looked so sad; I took pity on it and we fell in love. I used it for about a year or so before it split, and the end came swiftly after that. I sent the CD to Paiste Cymbals in Switzerland, with a view to them creating something similar, but heard no more." The cymbal story and much more is available directly from Bill's FAQ file: http://www.billbruford.com/bill/faq.html In my old-cymbals collection, I found a 20" Zilco dating to 1973-74, but it doesn't have the requisite "bush hat" damage described by Mr. Bruford. I shall endeavor to recreate the condition he describes, and make recorded samples on my now-antique Simmons SDX and on CD (when I get the time). Cheers, Jym Dingler http://www.jymdingler.com - The Cyber-Repository of All Human Knowledge(TM) "Since I gave up hope, I feel a lot better" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 08:46:50 +0100 From: Steve Moore Subject: Re: 'One More Red Nightmare' cymbal sound Scott Ranalli wrote : > The sound you hear on "Nightmare" is NOT a broken crash cymbal --- > there would be much more rattle in the sound if it were. Let me > iterate (or reiterate, in case my previous submission is posted) > that the accent sound is most probably produced by striking a Chinese > gong with a wooden drum stick (as opposed to a felt or fur-covered mallet). > This would produce the sustain that Bill's sound on the tune has --- a > broken cymbal would peter out quickly. Bruford himself has said (and I quote) "The cymbal was featured on "One More Red Nightmare" from King Crimson's "Red" album, and has quietly become a legend. I found it in the rehearsal room trash can, deposited there by the group in the room before us. It was turned up on one side in an effort to get it to fit in the bin, like an Australian bush hat; it had definitely seen better days. It was a "foreign made" Zilco Standard cymbal imported into the UK by Arbiter Co. Ltd., and, before you ask, I have no idea what happened to Zilco. Anyway, it's maltreatment had bequeathed it this fabulous trashy sound with a very short, fast decay. It looked so sad; I took pity on it and we fell in love. I used it for about a year or so before it split, and the end came swiftly after that. I sent the CD to Paiste Cymbals in Switzerland, with a view to them creating something similar, but heard no more." __Steve__ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 06:43:36 -0500 From: Lee Gray Subject: "Krautrock" - apologies Wow... I had no idea the word "krautrock" would cause offense. I was the one who initially asked for recommendations (thanks, everyone, for all the great info by the way). I certainly understand that certain words that are not considered offensive at some point in time can become so, but I was not aware that this was one of them. As others pointed out, it's been widely used by even German bands... it's the title of one of my favorite Faust tracks, which may or may not be the origin of the word. I'm now honestly curious to know if the word is still in common use by Germans. Whether it is or not, I apologize for any offense. Lee ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 13:11:13 +0100 From: "john.critten" Subject: Re: further thoughts on "Lizard", etc. David Way wrote "(Robert must be somewhat suspect of Mr. Haskell's contributions too - check out the "Frame By Frame" boxset. The two songs that he participated in ('Cadence and Cascade' and 'Bolero'), have a remixed Adrian Belew on vocals and Tony Levin on bass, respectively. Thus, Mr. Haskell doesn't appear on the boxset...)" Whilst RF may be somewhat suspect of Gordon Haskell's vocals, witness the heavily treated vocals on Lizard, and the guest vocal by Jon Anderson, some may suspect that the removal of GH's contributions on the Frame by Frame set was due to the disagreement between RF & GH over royalties. It seems that GH thinks RF promised him (GH) more in royalties for Lizard than he actually received. As GH does not appear on F by F he would receive no royalties, thus no additional dispute would arise John Critten. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 08:35:11 -0400 From: "Mark" Subject: Record sales plummet 7% Record labels say CD sales drop 7 pct, blame Web NEW YORK (Reuters) - Compact disc shipments fell 7 percent in the first six months of this year versus last year as growing use of Internet downloading services undermined sales, the record industry said Monda The Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA), which represents the world's largest record labels, issued a study by Peter D. Hart Research Associates indicating that Internet users who say they are downloading more music also said they were purchasing fewer albums. "Among people who said their downloading from file-sharing services had increased over the past six months, 41 percent reported purchasing less music now than six months ago, compared to only 19 percent who said they were purchasing more music," the RIAA said in a statement. The record industry successfully defeated the first popular file-serving service Napster, which a court ruled violated copyright law by offering the ability to share digital music. Since then several similar services such as Kazaa and Morpheus have cropped up. Earlier this month, Forrester Research issued a study saying piracy was not to blame for the sharp decline in record sales. Its study discovered no evidence of decreased CD buying among frequent digital music consumers, noting that the general economy and competition from other media were larger factors. "I would not argue that downloading and copying are the only factors at work," Geoff Garin, chief executive of Hart Research said. "But we have clear evidence that downloading and copying do not have a favorable effect on record sales." Jonathan Potter, executive director of Digital Media Association, a lobbying group that represents many music sites trying to promote and sell music over the Internet, said such surveys were of little value. "The way to defeat illegal music distribution services is to offer comprehensive, innovative, fairly priced legal services," Potter said. "Until the record companies offer their content ubiquitously in a consumer friendly way, studies like this are useless." The five major record labels -- Sony Music, AOL Time Warner Inc.'s Warner Music Group, EMI Group Plc, Vivendi Universal's Universal Music Group, Bertelsmann AG's BMG Entertainment -- and other companies are trying to trying to win users over to subscription-based services. But none have reached the mass appeal enjoyed by the unauthorized services. Garin said the survey tried to get an understanding of what would inspire consumers to abandon the free file-sharing services, although the results were not made public. "We do know that consumers don't have a very high recognition of what the alternatives to the free services are," Garin said. But he added that subscription services will find it difficult to compete with free services. Potter remained unconvinced. "I'd like to introduce the recording industry to something called bottled water," he said, referring to an example of successful retail items that are also easily available for free. "The point is if there were a high quality product that was affordable and available across multiple services, they would be able to defeat the free services," he said. The RIAA's survey is based on 860 music consumers with Internet access between the ages of 12 and 54. The survey also found that the number pirated compact discs acquired by Internet users has doubled from a year ago. Asked when they hear a song they like by an unfamiliar artist, 20 percent of the respondents said they would download the song for free, while 14 percent said they would buy the album. For respondents between 12 and 18 years of age, 35 percent said they would download the song for free, while 10 percent said they would buy the album. Reuters/Variety ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 07:36:34 -0500 From: Craig Subject: sauer on KRAUTROCK? >The first thing I would like to address is the use of ethnic slurs (e.g. >Krautrock) in people's posts to ET. You wouldn't refer to Japanese people >as nips or Vietnamese people as gooks not only because it's crass and >obscene, but also because it's disrespectful. Well, I could (perhaps) see you taking issue w/ say "frogprog" ;^) --- (I adore French prog, BTW) , but you are simply wrong here. Any record collector will tell you it`s the commonly accepted term for late `60s/early `70s underground rock from Germany. Try doing a search for it on eBay & you`ll find hundreds of listings. The term "krautrock" was supposedly first coined by the British press as an easy way of labeling this new music from Germany (after the release of Amon Duul I `s song "Mama Duul & her Sauerkraut Ban Start up!" from their LP "Psychedelic Underground").....& much later Faust released their FAUST IV LP, (the first track is called "Krautrock"). There are other examples......... Here, (for your edification) are a few splendid sites..... http://www.phinnweb.com/krautrock/ (German site that has links to these.....*) http://pages.unisonfree.net/midsuffolk/ (British site) * Deutschrock @ Psyche van het folk German Rock Discography 1966-1979 krautrock.org.uk Krautrock.De http://www.krautrocknet.com/ Krautrock @ Annexus Krautrock @ Mixmaster Morris' A Site for Sore Ears Krautrock @ George's Planet Krautrock @ MusicTrade.Com (record collector information) Krautrock @ Tones & Drones Krautrock Online Enjoy! ~C ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 08:43:44 -0500 From: "Jonathon Smith" Subject: Re: the banjo/the favorites/beat/psychedelics >> >>Larks 5 and Thrak combined and little more. Maybe it's time for Fripp >> >>to pick up a banjo... >If Fripp picked up the banjo I'd only hope he was as good as the banjoist >for the band Spacestation Integration. Actually, I've been getting me into Peter Gabriel's solo stuff [as recommended by members of the list]. Fripp does play banjo on Gabriel's first solo record. Jonathon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 17:17:32 +0100 From: Mr Tea Subject: PG Revisited It seems my glib romp through Mr Gabriel's oeuvre (ET 1004) wasn't universally well-received. > From: "Robert Bennett" > > Mr. Tea, I hate to say, you are very very wrong in your assessments > of Gabriel. Truth to tell, I hadn't revisited PG's back catalogue for many years, and I should have listened to the albums instead of just thumbing through the sleeves before pontificating so off-handedly. Now that I've dusted them off and given them a spin, I can see that I was a little harsh with regard to PG 4. "US" is just a mess though. The tragedy is that some sublime music is trying to fight its way out of the densely layered quagmire of overproduction. I would love to hear those songs re-recorded in the spare style of the PG 2 sessions. > From: sean hewitt > > I also object to the phrase "world music pollution" - what does that mean, > exactly? It means bog-standard rock tracks dressed up with an indiscriminate pick'n'mix selection of watered-down ethnic stylings. When "US" was released it had become the fashion for ageing rock celebs to try and rejuvinate their careers by diving off into some remote patch of jungle or third world slum and waving their portable DAT recorders at the locals. I'm not comfortable with the term 'World music'. It's a convenient but ultimately debasing label that throws a staggeringly diverse range of artists and musical traditions into the same anonymous basket. > Nothing on Passion is what you charmingly refer to as "undiluted ethnic > recordings" - all are PG compositions incorporating elements or > instrumentation from other cultures. Quite so. My imperfect memory was mixing together the 'Passion' soundtrack album and the associated 'Passion: Sources' CD. > If "bleeding heart liberalism", "world music pollution" and "undilurted > ethnic recordings" really piss you off... Well, perhaps "bleeding heart liberalism" was unfair. It's just that "Biko" was a bit fist-in-the-air evangelical for my tastes. As for being 'pissed off' by undiluted ethnic recordings - not guilty. At least 60 hours of 'primitive' music have found their way into my collection over the years, providing much listening pleasure. > ...maybe Peter Gabriel isn't quite the artist for you... I have often continued to buy records by certain acts long after they have ceased to be 'the artist for me', hoping for a return to form. It used to be that a new Peter Gabriel LP was a must-have item, but the law of diminishing returns seemed to set in after PG 3, and with "US" I just sorta lost interest. Of course, this has never been the case with King Crimson. Cordially Mr Tea ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 18:14:12 +0100 From: "Mike Dennis" Subject: Islands Sleeve/McDonald & Giles Hi Just to show my age(!) the original UK release of Islands was in a single sleeve with the nebula (spelling?) photographs. In side was a paper gatefold sleeve with the Peter Sinfield design - which of course was too flimsy for an LP. Today in a local store I bought the remastered CD of McDonald & Giles - didn't even know it was available. I presume I have missed something somewhere. Regards Mike Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:17:16 -0500 From: "Jonathan Yandel" Subject: Re: Going South, Tool, Gabriel >In this particular case (and please correct me, anybody, if I'm wrong) "going >south" is just a short form of "going south of the border", as in >travelling to Mexico or, for that matter, anywhere in this uncivilized, >lawless banana plantation that is thought to be Latin America... I always interpreted the phrases "going south" or "gone south" as meaning "gone down the tubes". In other words, north means up, south means down. I could be way off on this--maybe my naivete is showing through. Secondly, I still have to disagree that Gabriel's early music is pessimistic in nature--for example, "Don't Give Up" seemed to offer both points of view: the verses tended to be rather hopeless, but the chorus offers a ray of hope. This is symbolized by Gabriel singing the verses (lower voice=depressing feeling), and Kate Bush (higher, female voice=uplifting, nurturing character). Mind you, this is just my interpretation of the music--different people will come up with different interpretations. That's one of the great things about art: two people can come up with completely different views of the same work, and rather than one being incorrect, both are correct... On a related note (not really), how many Tool fans subscribe to ET? Any KC fan that isn't familiar with Tool really owes it to themselves to check out this band! Does anyone know of a good Tool newsletter? Best, jonathanGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:54:52 -0500 From: wviland at thin-film dot com Subject: Cheap & Dirty Fripp Sustain Has anyone out there found an inexpensive way to accomplish the legendary Fripp sustain/bandsaw sound. I have a Fernandes Virtigo Elite with sustainer, and a Crate GFX30 amp. What besides Fripps elaborate system (ie. Roland VG-8,GR-1,GR-30,GP-100, TC Electronics 2290, Eventide 3000,etc) can accomplish something close? Specifically in the sustain area. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:09:33 -0400 From: "Beth El" Subject: Lost classics, psychedelic experience, and censorship First off, I wanted to mention on the censorship issue, that on at least one occasion, I sent in a contribution to E.T. which I wish Toby had cut up. It contained sarcastic biting comments which resulted in me receiving the same back from other readers. I was left hiding my head for a bit. The lesson for me is that I should watch what I say more carefully, not depend on others to cut me off and make poor Toby's job all that much easier, he's got enough work without having to think about protecting the ego's of the readers and contributors. I recently realized there has been a progressive group missing from the E.T. discussion - Marillion. After their first album, "Script for a Jester's Tear," they became more and more commercial, and I can really only recommend their first four albums with the original lead singer, Fish, but "Script," even if it was a Genesis rip off, is classic. I remember finding out about the group from a friend that had recorded a song off the radio and asked me if I could identify what "Genesis," song it was. Well, it wasn't Genesis, it was Marillion, but I can sure see the confusion. Fish sounded more like Peter Gabriel than Pete at points. It's a dark, disturbing sort of album that filled a niche which Genesis had long since vacated since wishy washy Phil started crooning. As I said, their later works went downhill in my view, but this is not to say there were not things worth listening to. They had a few singles, including Kaleigh (their 3rd album, "Misplaced Childhood,") which you might remember from the mid-80's, plus some earlier lesser pieces like "Assassing" and "Punch and Judy," (both from the 2nd album, "Fugazi"). The group was also obviously influenced by Pink Floyd. I also wanted to mention another lost classic, although I don't think I would call it progressive, but am not sure what I would call it - Bill Wards "One Along the Way." This album (early 90's) has a ton of guest musician, from which Jack Bruce really stood out for me, along with Ozzie, Zack Wylde and others. The album is worth picking up just for the Jack Bruce songs. Surprisingly, I really can not imaging Black Sabbath doing any of the songs, even the ones Ozzie sings. Overall, it's a sort of hard rock album which demonstrate that Bill Ward has a brain in his head. The lyrics are thoughtful and the overall album construction stands out as a complete, polished production. I am left to wonder what Bill Ward would do if paired with Fripp, Trey Gunn or others as apposed to his usual band mates. Recently, Matt D. wrote in about psychedelics and Crimson. One experience stands out for me. My friends often have a hard time listening to Crimson, so I do not impose it on them much, least of all while tripping. However, some years back, a bunch of us were tripping, listening to the radio, and "Indiscipline," came on. It actually made an impression on my friends, a group of people that complained of their being overly complicated (they can't usually handle much beyond the norm). In this circumstance, it seems that psychedelics helped open a door. However, I have found that there is little to add through drugs to a King Crimson experience. During one show, I sparked up briefly, only to be immediately attached by the surrounding audience, so I put it out without much of a buzz. In the end, I enjoyed this show far more than a later one which I made sure I was altered for before entering the NY Club. I know I have listened to Crimson many many times while stoned, tripping, drunk etc..., but nothing else stands out. I think that once you get Crimson, there is nothing to add beyond your own ability to listen. Once I understood "Red," (not an easy process), I felt like the door was opened with nothing more needed, but my friends' experiences indicate that the process have may been quicker if I had dosed. That was nearly 20 years ago now, and my love for Crimson has not wavered, nor has it been noticeably chemically enhanced. I recommend the pure state for a Crimson experience, but given the listeners role in Crimson, I can not rule out added variety by altering the listener. Peace and Love, Scott Congregation Beth El 222 Irvington Ave. South Orange, NJ 07079 (973)763-0111 www.bethelnj.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 11:35:23 -0700 From: "Jonathan" Subject: Forward-looking Crim "Richard Heath" writes: > > I would draw an absolute distinction between KC and most of what > is referred to as 'prog rock', and they explain why I still > listen to Crimson whilst the others form a neglected and > embarrassing part of my record collection. That insistence on > not resting on laurels, not making the same record twice etc. may > be responsible for the band's chronic instability, but it also > explains why they are still worth listening to and still exciting I'm right there with you. For me, the thing that makes Crimson wonderful is Fripp's refusal to let Crimson become a nostagia act. It seems far too easy to play the reliable hits and make the fans happy. My observation is that Fripp puts quite a bit of effort into training his fans (and, for that matter, his fellow players) to drop their expectations. Of course, it helps that the new music is always excellent, or at least very interesting (My crim-indocrination came after Lizard was released. I'm not sure what I would think if I went out to the store to get the latest Crim LP and came home with Lizard. Scary.). Whenever anyone recognizes my Lark's t-shirt, I always have to say that, yes, King Crimson is still around and, no, they have not turned into a nostalgia act. (I'd update my t-shirt, but that sun/moon paganesque design is my favorite of the Crim covers. I've considered getting a tat of it, but haven't). and... "prof. Dawid" writes: > > Four years later in June 2000 KC came back to Poland and Fripp was > asked if he remembered that concert. He said he did and added that: > "I still think about these concerts (PL, CZ, H, SVK) with hatred. > I hate these concerts and the memories because KC was expected in > these countries as a representative of the music from the '70s > along with groups such as Yes, ELP etc. People did not come to > listen to KC AD 1996 but AD 1970s. Moreover, the place was > terrible..." That's what I remember about his words. ... > Do you think guys that he was right to say this? Absolutely. IMO, it takes discipline for a band to refuse to fall into the "nostalgia act" trap. Personally, I'll put up with all manner of verbal nonsense from Fripp if he keeps putting out great recordings. It helps that, in between the wanking on about "audients", he says some very humorous stuff ("tuning a mellotron doesn't"). Regards, Jonathan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 13:48:40 -0500 From: "Buzz Fenner" Subject: Cymbal Sound in "Nightmare" In ET #1014, Scott Ranalli wrote: My response to R. Lumenta: The sound you hear on "Nightmare" is NOT a broken crash cymbal --- there would be much more rattle in the sound if it were. Let me iterate (or reiterate, in case my previous submission is posted) that the accent sound is most probably produced by striking a Chinese gong with a wooden drum stick (as opposed to a felt or fur-covered mallet). This would produce the sustain that Bill's sound on the tune has --- a broken cymbal would peter out quickly. The sound you hear is in fact a cymbal. BB told the story of how that came to be (I read it a long time ago; then another ET'er pointed out to me that a KC book by Sid Smith has roughly the same tale). When KC started rehearsing the music for Red, they rented a rehearsal space. In a pile of junk over in a corner, Bill found a china cymbal that had one side of it bent back to what would be the original shape (if it had been a regular cymbal). Out of curiosity, he mounted it up and liked the sound enough to use it on that cut. But, alas, the cymbal didn't hold up and cracked through. I'm writing this from an old memory, so others ET'ers who have the book feel free to correct me. Buzz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 19:23:04 +0000 From: "Dale cleary" Subject: Hello fellow KC fans regarding Vroom DVD. I must say after spending nearly $100.00 on this I was a bit upset that it doesn't inform the consumer that it's previously released material. I enjoyed seeing Bill solo from behind the kit but I knew that solo note for note anyway. I will be FAR more careful before I buy anything from Crimson again. The other stuff on the DVD is just a gimmic. I somehow thought KC was beyond gimmics. Apparently not. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:38:54 +0200 From: "jan van Os" Subject: The KC Amsterdam gig 11-23-1973 Hello Crimso lovers ... I'm from Holland and a Crimso geek for over 30 years now. Something my (bad ) memory told me , seemed to be true, At the ET pages I found a play list of gigs KC did over the years ,,,, They did 2 concerts in Amsterdam in 1973,,, >From the 2 th concert there are many recordings, only 1 of them contents the track: The Night Watch,,, Personaly I'm pritty sure R.F. has written that song after the first gig in Amsterdam, : 31-3-1973 So WHO Subject: Re: SACD > With all the KC Remastering going on, anyone know if the recordings > will be pressed in the new SACD format? > - CDCDB at aol dot com Just how many times will people have to buy the same material again (and again and...) ?? Alan Lankin -- Jazzmatazz http://jazzmatazz.home.att.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:16:34 -0700 From: "Al Bonowitz" Subject: Funky "One More Red Nightmare" cymbal It's not a gong. This comes from the FAQ section of Bill Bruford's Web site (www.billbruford.com): 19) What was that great cymbal on the Red album by King Crimson? The cymbal was featured on "One More Red Nightmare" from King Crimson's "Red" album, and has quietly become a legend. I found it in the rehearsal room trash can, deposited there by the group in the room before us. It was turned up on one side in an effort to get it to fit in the bin, like an Australian bush hat; it had definitely seen better days. It was a "foreign made" Zilco Standard cymbal imported into the UK by Arbiter Co. Ltd., and, before you ask, I have no idea what happened to Zilco. Anyway, it's maltreatment had bequeathed it this fabulous trashy sound with a very short, fast decay. It looked so sad; I took pity on it and we fell in love. I used it for about a year or so before it split, and the end came swiftly after that. I sent the CD to Paiste Cymbals in Switzerland, with a view to them creating something similar, but heard no more. Also from Bruford's site: 3) Why does your snare drum sound like that? When I started playing, the drums were unmiked, and the amplifiers very big. To be better heard, I used a combination of open tuning with a rimshot struck on the "ringy" part of the drum, midway between the centre and the rim. This got the high frequencies out and cutting through, and the ring, excessive if heard on its own, was absorbed when everyone else played. Necessity is often the mother of invention. This approach became monumentally unacceptable to rock record producers as the records came to be made within a rapidly shrinking dynamic range, the better to suit the demands of American FM radio. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1016 *********************************