Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1014 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1014 Wednesday, 28 August 2002 Today's Topics: Re: kc live videos FRIPP/TOOL Interview Dismality and Despair Two Questions about Crim. Re: Two questions about Red further thoughts on "Lizard", etc. Differences in 30th anniversary editions? A Quick Note Re: Bruford's Jazz Background The Women's Retreat: The Craft of Voice and Music Islands Cover Re: SACD CGT show in NJ Re: the word kraut, Einsturtzende Neubauten , KC influential band Germanic Rock(politically correct :~) "Krautrock" New Gordon Haskell US Release! ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:01:17 EDT From: AndyAcunzo at aol dot com Subject: Re: kc live videos "Jordan Clifford" wrote: >If you haven't already broken into the DVD age, the King Crimson Deja >Vrooom DVD is more than a good reason to start. This DVD is just fantastic, >and not only does it contain a great set by the double trio, it also >contains an interchangable menu of every incarnation of KC doing their >version of 21CSM.. so you can have Belew singing and Cross doing the solo >all in the same song played over some great photos of the band. Not to >mention many many other features. It is loaded. I just got this DVD also and while I definitely agree that it is loaded, I think it could have been much better. First and most importantly I've loved the performances on this concert since the video was released several years ago. However, this is one of the most difficult DVDs to navigate that I've ever seen. Also, for some reason after each song the sound and picture fade out, killing the you-are-there vibe. I don't know why this is, as the VHS version didn't do this. Also, VROOOM and VROOOM VROOOM were switched for some reason on this disc (compared to the videotape) and are mislabeled. However, I will say the multiple camera angles featrures in a few tunes are a nice touch. Most of the other extras aren't things I'd look at more than once. All in all I must say if I want to just watch the concert, I'd probably still go with the VHS version for its continuous flow. Since the whole thing looks like it was filmed through gauze anyway, it's not like the picture on the DVD looks any better. (Maybe the surround sound mix is worth it - I can't tell with my setup). So I say great concert, flawed DVD. Andy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 07:03:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Jimmy Bob Subject: FRIPP/TOOL Interview I was checking out the KN archives from a year ago and I found something that caught my interest. It was from July 12, 2001 and it was about an interview between Fripp and Tool. It also mentioned DAT tapes of the interview. And I thought, "hmm, interesting" since KC and Tool are my #1 & #2 bands respectively. But nothing later on (in the archives) really goes beyond that little article goes beyond that. Does anyone know what happened to this interview? -jimmybob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 08:30:38 -0600 From: "Michael Cox" Subject: Dismality and Despair sean hewitt writes: > I've been a Gabriel fan since before his solo career > even started and I'm unaware of any "dismal and negative view of life" in > any of his work. Perhaps I'm not just listening to this stuff at the same > hyper-intelligent, superdismal level as you, Michael. Possibly. Try listening more closely to "Here Comes the Flood" or that one Kate Bush sings on -- is it "Don't give up"? Much of the earlier material (IMHO) exudes a hopeless negativity, which makes a great deal of sense if you know what was going on in his life right then, which surely you do. "Don't give up" in particular used to make me feel nearly suicidal. But it's brilliant stuff. Personally I don't care much for anything very much later. In any case, surely Michael is entitled to his opinion? > One final, and quite serious, question: In what way(s) is Eddie Jobson a > "better" musician than Brian Eno? Part of me wants to answer "because Jobson makes actual MUSIC" but seriously, I don't think there would be much disagreement on this point among people who actually play an instrument themselves. Notice that this doesn't imply Jobson makes better music; he rather bores me, virtuoso though he is. You'll find many people (I'm not one) who think Eno is brilliant, but I don't think you'll find anyone calling him a virtuoso. It's like the people who insist that Fripp is the best guitarist in the world; this cheapens his music and makes the whole thing into a kind of popularity contest. It isn't necessary for Fripp to be the world's greatest guitarist in order to make some of the world's greatest music. Just my two cents. Michael Cox ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 09:40:11 -0500 From: Scott Ranalli Subject: Two Questions about Crim. I don't have an answer for the 1st question, but as far as the 2nd one, I believe the "One More Red Nightmare" has a single drum track. What has always made me curious is that there is the metallic accent sound which almost sounds like an aluminum trash can. I belive the sound comes from using a regular wooden drum stick on a medium to large gong (a felt or fur covered mallet is usually utilized for this instrument). If this is so, then where was this (vertical) gong mounted in relation to the rest of Bill's kit? I always pictured him having it behind him and then reaching behind with one of his hands to play it --- a cool look to go with the cool sound. Ragman ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 09:53:42 -0500 From: Scott Ranalli Subject: Re: Re: Two questions about Red My response to R. Lumenta: The sound you hear on "Nightmare" is NOT a broken crash cymbal --- there would be much more rattle in the sound if it were. Let me iterate (or reiterate, in case my previous submission is posted) that the accent sound is most probably produced by striking a Chinese gong with a wooden drum stick (as opposed to a felt or fur-covered mallet). This would produce the sustain that Bill's sound on the tune has --- a broken cymbal would peter out quickly. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 11:24:52 -0400 From: "D Way" Subject: further thoughts on "Lizard", etc. Hello again...out of lurker mode to respond to a reply to my original post: >The question of Crimson and jazz ties in quite nicely with David Way's >about Lizard. Personally I love it (apart from bits of side 2), and David >doesn't say why exactly he doesn't like it. (BTW, isn't having 3 versions >of an album you hate a little obsessive?;-)). Perhaps it depends largely on >where you get your points of reference - >I would guess most Crimfans who are also jazz fans rate it highly as well. > >Best wishes > >Richard Heath First, thank you for responding. You touched nicely on why you like "Lizard", and now I am more befuddled than before. I quite like jazz too; thus, a new and improved level of confusion for me for my dislike of "Lizard"... :) I knew I'd get the response that it was strange for me to get three different copies of the album - this oddity is very easy to explain. (I know that this opinion will resonate well with prog fans) when I really like a band, I tend to be a "completist"; thus, this explains why I had the LP and first CD version of the album. I bought the 30th Anniversary remaster out of the hope that I'd hear something that I didn't hear before (like with the 30th Anniversary release of "In the Court of the Crimson King" - in parts of this release anyway, I was hearing layers of the album I never knew existed). That answers that question. (No, I won't get a SACD or DVD-A of "Lizard" if it is made, unless rarities included on it make it a necessity :) On the question of what I specifically dislike about "Lizard", that is hard to pinpoint. Like William Hurt in "The Big Chill", I tend to let art "wash over me". Thus, I can't precisely pinpoint what I don't like about it besides saying that the songs don't catch my interest at all. Or, maybe I can pinpoint something... I think I really don't like the singing OR the bass playing of Gordon Haskell. (Robert must be somewhat suspect of Mr. Haskell's contributions too - check out the "Frame By Frame" boxset. The two songs that he participated in ('Cadence and Cascade' and 'Bolero'), have a remixed Adrian Belew on vocals and Tony Levin on bass, respectively. Thus, Mr. Haskell doesn't appear on the boxset...) Yes, that must be part of it. (Another side note: I'm a BIG Yes fan and I even dislike "Prince Rupert Awakes" - go figure.) So, basically I'm confused about disliking an album so much by a band that I love so much. I know that this isn't even a rare situation among music listeners. Ultimately, I want to know what other people find so interesting about this album because I've tried to discover it on my own without success. Another list appeal, David P.S. Direct off-list responses to omeganalpha at yahoo dot com - explanation in my previous post in ET #1012. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 09:43:39 -0600 From: "Christian Hess Araya" Subject: Differences in 30th anniversary editions? Hi, all. I think this hasn't been discussed here (at least not recently). I'm in the process of converting all my original releases and definitive edition remasters of KC to the corresponding 30th anniversary issues (I'm only lacking "Discipline" and "Beat" at this point, if not sadly mistaken). Any way, while listing to LTIA, I could swear there are slight differences in the music at certain points. Nothing drastic, just subtley longer riffs, differing introductory passages, etc. On another example, at least at first glance, "The Court..." in ITCOTCK seems to be a few seconds longer than the DEM release. Is it just my feverish imagination? Christian Hess San Jose, Costa Rica ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 11:53:02 EDT From: JohnWylam at aol dot com Subject: A Quick Note Re: Bruford's Jazz Background Hi, All -- A poster in #1012, Marcelo Rodriguez, touched on Bruford's jazz influence. Unquestionably, it's there. Bruford grew up listening to (and loving) Art Blakey, and as we see in the liner notes for *Footloose in NYC,* it seems that Bruford's attempting to identify a next generation of British jazz players, a legacy if you like. Inerestnig thought, no? One of the things I loved about the interplay between Bruford and Fripp is that very clash of styles, Fripp pushing toward a finely-honed precision and Bruford pushing at the margins of that control (I needn't mention that both musicians were and remain fully capable of taking the opposite tack -- witness Fripp's often-breathtaking fluidity and adaptability in the ProjeKcts and Bruford's sense of precision in any number of session projects). Watching KC in the seventies reminded me of meteorology, especially in FL where I saw them then -- that clash of air masses that produce high cloudtops and especially violent storms. Actually, KC helped push me further in the direction of jazz as a listener. After hearing the first three albums, I realized how much I wanted to find out more about Keith Tippett, and that investigation has meant a lot to me in the succeeding decades (KT's work as a leader is, IMHO, among the most under-rated in all of jazz -- if/when his new *Tapestry* project is released, you owe it to yourself to check it out; it's allegedly the next stage in the development that began with Centipede and continued with Ark); after hearing *Larks' Tongues* I found an LP by the Music Improvisation Company with Jamie Muir, and was amazed. Potent stuff. KC helped open me to British jazz in general, which I still think is as vibrant and exciting as anything happening Stateside. KC's importance to its attentive listeners, and Marcelo sure seems to be one, can't be overstated. Much Cheer, everyone. John Wylam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 09:02:05 -0700 From: "Sandra" Subject: The Women's Retreat: The Craft of Voice and Music The Women's Retreat: The Craft of Voice and Music March 17 - 21, 2003 Sevenoaks Pathwork Center in Madison, Virginia Jaxie Binder, Debra Kahan, Patricia Leavitt, Sandra Bain Cushman The Women's Retreat will be an opportunity to apply the principles of Craft to vocal and instrumental music, along with an introduction to the Alexander Technique. While there will be a focus on voice and guitar, other instruments are welcome and participants are encouraged to bring them. The Retreat will be open to all women; neither prior participation in Guitar Craft nor any prior musical experience is required. All aspects of the retreat will be co-operative - there will be no dedicated kitchen or house staff - thus providing further opportunities for personal practice in non-musical applications. Generally, the Retreat will be open to women over the age of 21, but younger women may also apply and will be considered. The instructors will include Jaxie Binder for guitar; Patricia Leavitt and Debra Kahan for voice; Sandra Bain Cushman will supervise the presentation of the Alexander Technique. The Retreat will open with Afternoon Tea on Monday, March 17th, and will close after Lunch on Friday, March 21st. The cost of the retreat will be between $550 and $700, depending on the number of participants. A non-refundable deposit of $125 is required to reserve your space. Interested persons should contact the Women's Retreat Registrar at registrar-women at medtek dot org for more information. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 13:40:49 -0400 From: Peter Law Subject: Islands Cover I gotta put in my vote for the US-version "amoeboid" cover for "Islands" as my favorite KC album cover. I recall it being particularly striking when compared to the covers of other, contemporaneous "progrock" album artwork, which tended to be, shall we say, "busy." I also feel it captures the Mediterranean isles imagery evoked throughout by the lyrics and music. It wasn't until years later I discovered that the UK-version had an entirely different cover! (I wonder if any non-US-ers had the same reaction to the reverse?) For me, the use of a photograph kinda seemed (s) out of place, following on the heels of several superb artist-rendered sleeves. My question to UK-ers: Did the UK-version gatefold open up to the US "amoebas" as the remastered (cardboard sleeve) CD does? Was it even a gatefold sleeve? Thanks, --Pete ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 14:10:55 EDT From: CDCDB at aol dot com Subject: Re: RE: SACD In the posted response to my SACD query, you stated that DVD-A rollout being bungled. I did not even consider purchasing a CD player until they had moved up to 8 times oversampling. I have not seen a listed specification stating anything about oversampling on any of the DVD players I have seen, maybe I am not looking at anything good enough. It seems that 96 KHz is only equivalent to 2 times oversampling, which would cause a fair amount of harmonic noise injection. The DVD-A disc I have borrowed seem to support my assumption. >From the demo I heard, SACD seems like the best audio improvement made since CDs were first brought out. Since the technology has been around for the last couple of years, I was wondering if during the remastering, the powers that be maybe took the time to consider the technology. Here is a link the talks generally about the subject: http://slate.msn.com/?id=2069628 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 14:48:59 -0400 From: Jim Robinson Subject: CGT show in NJ I noticed on the CGT tour schedule that the contact for the September 9th show in Piscataway NJ was missing the contact email. If anyone needs to get tickets here is the addy. njproghouse at yahoo dot com Peace- Jim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 14:08:05 -0600 From: "Christian Hess Araya" Subject: Re: the word kraut, Einsturtzende Neubauten , KC influential band In ET #1013, PeterSchaut at aol dot com writes: > As to the post in ET# 1008 by Christian Hess who > doesn't think King Crimson was/is a very influential band Peter: I never said that. I wrote that, IMHO, KC isn't *as influential* as the Fab Four, not that they're not influential at all. The impact the Beatles had, not only in music but in popular culture as a whole, is yet unmatched. While not in themselves progressive, their mid 60's musical experimentation paved the way in people's tastes for later, more elaborate bands, including Yes, Genesis, EL&P, and KC. BTW, I wholeheartedly agree with your comments regarding ethnic or racial slurs in posts to ET. Many people don't even realize that certain common American expressions, such as "going south" (meaning something that sours, goes wrong, bombs, freaks out, or whatever), have a derogatory effect. In this particular case (and please correct me, anybody, if I'm wrong) "going south" is just a short form of "going south of the border", as in travelling to Mexico or, for that matter, anywhere in this uncivilized, lawless banana plantation that is thought to be Latin America... Later, Christian Hess San Jose, Costa Rica ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 13:29:18 -0400 From: "Mark" Subject: Germanic Rock(politically correct :~) Wow, had no idea the German peoples among us would take umbrage at the term Krautrock. The term has been in use among musicians and journalists for 25+ years with no harm intended. Point taken however. Dawid wrote:There are hundreds of more (Neu, Faust, Cosmic Jokers etc) but you must remember that this is a very difficult genre of music. Glad to see mention of Neu. I have two of the LP's the first and second. Also there is a Tribute album of Neu's songs by other artists that I think is excellent also. Michael Rother's(neu) solo work is also outstanding. If one can find KATZENMUZIC it's well worth having. Muscular riff tunes mixed with relaxed droney micromelodies. A sort of adult-contemporary loopy type sound with rock instruments but really beautiful textures. Check it out if you can. Re: Arto. I first happened upon his work on an obscure LP known as No New York, which I have. Very unique character. He is also featured on a PBS video called Put Blood In The Music, a collection of New York city musicians including Sonic Youth, Jonh Zorn and many others. Cool piece if you can find it. All this talk of sleeve art has had me scrambling thru the old forgotten LP's in the attic. Found that I have 7 KC LPs, ITCOTCK,USA, Lark's tongue, Lizard, Starless, Red and In The Wake Of Poseidon(which I really can't even remember, have to hook up the victrola). Was wondering if these have been discussed:Quiet Sun-Mainstream, Matching Mole(Robert Wyatt etc. and my second fave bass player of all time Bill Maccormick), Ruth Is Stranger Than Richard, 801 Live, Phil Manzanera/801, Henry Cow. Cheers,mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 16:43:50 -0400 From: Jim Bailey Subject: "Krautrock" >From: PeterSchaut at aol dot com >Subject: the word kraut, Einsturtzende Neubauten , KC influential band >The first thing I would like to address is the use of ethnic slurs (e.g. >Krautrock) in people's posts to ET. You wouldn't refer to Japanese people >as nips or Vietnamese people as gooks not only because it's crass and >obscene, but also because it's disrespectful. No, I wouldn't. I also wouldn't use terms like "Niprock," or "Gookrock," because those terms have never been coined. The term Krautrock was. This may be a chicken-and-egg story, but it supposedly came from the tune of that name by the group Faust (who were, um, German). It was also used by at least one German record label on more than one compilation album in the '70s. Had it been used here in a pejorative sense, and directed at a specific individual or Germans as a whole, I could see reson for concern, but it was not. It was merely being (re)used as a term for a genre of music. Jim Bailey ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 16:31:34 -0500 From: Brad San Martin Subject: New Gordon Haskell US Release! Greetings, Crimsonphiles. I am proud to announce that on September 10th, Compass Records will be releasing Gordon Haskell's smash UK hit album "Harry's Bar" in the United States. You all most likely know Haskell from his appearances on "Lizard" and "In the Wake of Poseidon." On his own, Haskell focuses on the expansive, jazzy tinge that he brought to "Poseidon," but much more song-based. Those of you reading in the UK already know Haskell, as the lead-off track from "Harry's Bar," "How Wonderful You Are," was a surprise Christmas hit there. In fact, this elegant, jazzy ballad has risen to become the BBC Radio 2's most-requested song ever -- even more than "My Way" and "Hey Jude." Please visit www.compassrecords.com or www.gordonhaskell.com for more information! Thanks! brad ~~~~~~~~ Brad San Martin Compass Records 117 30th Ave South Nashville, TN 37212 brad at compassrecords dot com p 615-320-7672 f 615-320-7378 ~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1014 *********************************