Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1012 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1012 Monday, 26 August 2002 Today's Topics: Re: Two questions about Red FINALLY! Someone defends "Beat" (and more) Level 5 / Hangin' with the legends of Canterbury Sounds Like KC A close relationship Re: Roxy+P.G. Peter Gabriel's best The "Beat" in context; new and exciting. The Bears Re: gunnnnn Re: 'fist' Re: Doing some damage Re: kc live videos Re: covers gabriel Krautrock ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 01:04:21 +0800 From: Dave Lumenta Subject: Re: Two questions about Red I'm not an audiophile geek - but I must say that the remastered version has improved dynamic sound (the lower frequencies cut through far more better than the early virgin CDs). Comparing it to vinyl, Fripp surely didn't want 'silence' to be interpreted as vinyl hiss. Bruford played a broken crash cymbal as far as I remember. Bruford had once answered on this in a 1989 Modern Drummer copy (the one with Roy Haines on the cover - if I remember well). I also assume it must have been overdubbed. D. Lumenta ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 13:30:32 -0400 From: "D Way" Subject: FINALLY! Someone defends "Beat" (and more) Hi all. Well, someone's post brought me out of lurker mode; so, I'll contribute my two cents as well. First, with Toby's indulgence, I'll offer my rankings of the albums: Pre-1980: 1) Red 2) Larks' Tongues in Aspic 3) In the Court of the Crimson King 4) Starless and Bible Black (virtual tie w/ #3) 5) Islands 6) In the Wake of Poseidon 7) Lizard (I simply do NOT like this album - more below) Post-1980: 1) Discipline 2) Beat 3) (tie) The ConstruKction of Light, THRAK, Three of a Perfect Pair (I really can't decide between these three - I listen to them as often as one another and none of them give me more profound enjoyment than the others) (Side note before continuing - I don't think that comparing the 60's and 70's Crim with the 80's and 90's versions of the band can be done convicingly - they are quite different bands, too different to be compared, IMHO (e.g., the debut album vs. THRAK, Islands vs. The ConstruKction of Light, etc.).) Now, more on "Beat" and beyond. I guess I have to throw this question open to the list and see where it leads. Why do most readers of ET give 'Three of a Perfect Pair' a relative pass when it comes to criticism, but vent their spleen in buckets when it comes to 'Beat'? In addition, the same phenomenon occurs with the two albums 'Lizard' and 'Islands' (lavish praise for the first, effusive condemnation for the second). Personally, I'd choose to listen to 'Islands' and 'Beat' over 'Lizard' and 'Three of a Perfect Pair' every day that ends in 'y'. So, people who love either record, tell me why you are so fond of (or, at least, not dislike) 'Three of a Perfect Pair' and 'Lizard'. I especially need help in understanding why people like 'Lizard' - I have bought this album on LP, the so-called "Definitive Remaster", and the 30th Anniversary edition. Every time I upgraded, I REALLY tried with an open mind, as free from expectation and criticism as possible, to listen to it. It didn't work. Not only do I not like this album, but (obviously) I have trouble understanding why anyone lavishes praise on it (except for the sleeve - that's beautiful). I have less trouble with 'Three of a Perfect Pair' - if I may use LP/Cassette terminology, I always liked Side 1; however, Side 2 underwhelmed me mightily (especially "Larks' Tongues in Aspic, Part III" - I only have one word to say about that song: "Why?"). If you want to respond off the list, please write to my other e-mail address: omeganalpha at yahoo dot com (this Hotmail account I am using used to get so much spam, I had to turn on an "exclusive" filter - thus, I can't receive e-mail from anyone not already in my address book). Thanks, David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:37:37 -0400 From: "Brian Preston" Subject: Level 5 / Hangin' with the legends of Canterbury So what's all this about Level 5? A new Crim release- and is it officially released? Also, does DGM still exist? I spent a wonderful weekend in Seattle last weekend with the Canterbury legends at the Progman Cometh Festival. This 3 day music weekend was in a neat old theatre in downtown Seattle - featured the likes of Hugh Hopper's Hughscore, Pip Pyle's Bash, Phil Miller's InCahoots (best band of the show IMHO!), Richard Sinclair, Software (featuring Big Al, Hopper, Elton Dean and John Marshall) and Daevid Allen's Universe of Errors. Also some other good groups not the least of which was Hamster Theatre featuring Dave Willey on accordian and members of Thinking Plague. Get their CDs if you dont already have them, esp. if you are a fan of RIO. The last night after the show we were all hanging together at a little 'down home' bar drinking with all of these guys. Phil Miller and Richard Sinclair (and his long time partner Heather) are particularly super nice guys! Pretty amazing weekend my friends! Anyone coming to Chapel Hill for ProgDay next weekend please consider coming to our show on Friday Aug 30 at Local 506 in Chapel Hill featuring: * Dark Aether Project (with Warr guitrist Adam Levin) * Smokin'Granny (in rotation on Krimson Radio @ Live365) * French TV (legendary genre bending complexity) http://www.darkaether.net/pd2k2/ We'll pack it tight! Bye for now my friends. ************************************************************************* Brian Preston/Metaphoric Music Productions Smokin'Granny http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/smokingranny2 (sound files/reviews) http://meta4ik.home.mindspring.com/smokingranny Krimson News Radio http://www.live365.com/stations/crim75 (SG in rotation!) ******** ******** ******** ******** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 16:32:52 EDT From: GORTAY at aol dot com Subject: Sounds Like KC I recently bought an album entitled "MW -pour Robert Wyatt" which, as you might imagine, is a collection of Robert Wyatt songs performed by various French artists. (Anyone who doesn't know who Robert Wyatt is ought to be ashamed of themselves.) When I played track 20, "For R.W.", the intro seemed very familiar so I got my copy of 'S&BB' out and, sure enough, it is virtually indistinguishable from the intro to 'Fracture'. Now on it's own this is just a curiosity but when I checked the personnel, who should get a playing credit but Mr. Chris Cutler. Cutler received some notice on these pages a few weeks ago relating to his supposed avowed antipathy to things of a Crimson hue. Gordon Taylor ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 21:42:06 +0000 From: "Marcelo Rodriguez" Subject: A close relationship Hi everybody at ET! I have been thinking about the question, and I wondered if there are any KC fans who also like Jazz music. I realy love jazz (as much as KC, I suppose!), particularly from the be-bop era on, and I have met others KC fans here in Argentina who also like this style of music, and (like me) find a strong connection between jazz and ProgRock (including symphonic). It reminds me that once Robert Fripp spoke about Bill Bruford as the drummer who wanted to be a jazz musician. And everybody can perceive that his unique style is strongly influenced by jazz. In addition, we can find others elements in common, such as long instrumental improvisations, the use of "extended technique" when playing instruments, that is, to play them using all the armonic possibilities the instrument can offer, and a deep knowledge of music theory among musicians, which enables them to play this music (it will never be easy to play jazz, or ProgRock). And at last but not least, is that both styles are still far away from the market dictatorship; in other words, it is a matter of talent, of love to good music (pretty important, isn't it?). Best wishes to all Marcelo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:00:56 -0400 From: "Mark" Subject: Re: Roxy+P.G. No offense but I disagree to an extent. Stranded and the rest to follow were still decent musics but in my estimation the band became The Brian Ferry Band at that point and no loger was Roxy regardless of the album sleeves. Eno's abstractions were what pricked my ears at the outset. Pioneer work incorporating of non-music elements with synths and his various gizmos. This absurdist figure amidst the conventional rock band setup just cracked me up. Of course Andy, who remained, had much to do with this as well with his occasional atonal wailing. Still, Roxy's slickest, Ferryest, albums remain far more musical and interesting than 90% of whatever else was happening thru those years for me. I'm not knocking the other "Roxy"albums. Manifesto remains a fave for me today. RE:P.G. Are you all familiar with the film POV. Concert footage with P.G.'s band circa the Biko stuff? Awesome film if you haven't. Rentable at most video stores with a decent musical section. Also The Last Temptation Of Christ by Scorcese(sp?) is great to see how the Passion score was used in the film. For all the bashing it seems to take I love the album US. I saw the road prep show in Ventura California that year. First show of the US leg of the tour in a tiny 1200 seat theatre. I've stll got the Tee shirt. Unbelievable. During one tune Peter asked for a moment of silence, and sampled his voice into his Fairlight sampler and with the band tickled into the tune Secret World. My kingdom for a camera!! Also met Tony that night bfore the show. He came out front in the orchestra pit to look at the stage set up and with my heart in my throat told him how much I appreciated his bass playing, as a bass player myself. The unfortunate term "bass god" may have slipped form my innebriated lips. He offered his hand to shake but I declined telling him "naah man, you gotta play tonight". He looked at me funny and I hightailed it back to my seat. One of my top 3 concert experiences of all time. Cheers to all, mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 22:05:21 +0000 From: "Marcelo Rodriguez" Subject: Peter Gabriel's best Hi ET people! I have read Jonathon's interest about Peter Gabriel's early works, and I would like everybody to try Peter Gabriel's first solo album (the one he is in a car, raining outside): it is simply excellent, and in my opinion as good as PG's no.3 album. Still you can find the reminiscences of his brilliant work while commanding Genesis thru the first half of the '70: the outstantding lyrics, superb instrumentation (featuring Robert Fripp on guitar and Tony Levin on bass, among others), and the influence of different styles which enrich his natural talent. For all of them who have a good taste for good music, this album is a must. Best wishes Marcelo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 18:24:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Raymond Raupers Subject: The "Beat" in context; new and exciting. I have enjoyed the posts attempting to qualify "Beat". However from where I've come from the importance of "Beat" is remembered distinctly as another exciting adventure from the "new" KC. I believe many newer KC collectors will never experience or understand how special it was to experience that LP in it's infancy. It's like trying to discover what the 60's were by spinning discs from 2002 back to 1967. It's entertaining but the "Beat" experience is not the same looking back as it was looking forward. And remember this is prog rock...It's not supposed to be. Is it? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:09:55 -0400 From: "Block Dog" Subject: The Bears New Live Bears due in September and more tour dates. http://www.thebearsmusic.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:22:22 -0500 From: Craig Subject: Re: gunnnnn >>[If I may chip in, I think "The Joy of Molybdenum" is superb. Tangerine >Dream meets Crimson meets Jeff Beck meets Philip Glass meets >... erm... Trey Gunn I guess. -- Toby] >I agree with Toby - I think the Trey Gunn records have been getting better >as they go. Ever the dissident,......... in MHO & all such tripe,.............. I thought his most affective & appealing was "1000 "Years", & then "The Joy...", wheras "The Third Star" doesn`t hold interest well. Have yet to hear, "Live Encounter" I`ll certainly need to pick up. np: roxy music-"the bogus man" ~C ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:31:40 -0500 From: Craig Subject: Re: 'fist' >I first bought Faust Tapes and couldn't get into it, then got Faust IV and >liked it much better. Later, after getting into a few other experimental >artists, I saw Faust's fairly recent Wumme Years box set, and took a wild >chance and bought it. Now I'm crazy about them too - even love Faust >Tapes now! The only one I can live without is the first album, but even >it is an interesting listen. HUH? Good gawd, man! That`s the pinnacle! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 01:40:27 -0400 From: "brad cook" Subject: Re: Doing some damage >I recently picked up a interesting copy of Sylvian/Fripp 'Damage' as fallows: >1994 Virgin Records UK/Austria release, 39905. >Features a fantastic live recording with David Sylvian & Robert Fripp with >Michael Brook, Trey Gunn and Pat Mastelotto. >Includes a 32 page full color booklet, a limited edition 24 carat gold CD >and a special hard slipcase to hold them >First, I'm wondering if it has any collector value. So far it doesn't appear to have much more value than what it originally sold for. It might sell for 25 bucks on Ebay from what I've seen. Someone can correct me if that has changed. >Second, what are some opinions on the recoding. I mostly never criticize music on the first listen. I think that's a good decision and I think you should give it a few more listens after a break. I had this CD for probably 2 years or maybe more before it really grabbed me. One day I put it on again after not having heard it in a long time and it just really clicked and now I really enjoy it. I totally felt the same way about Sylvian's vocals but now I like him and have bought many of his solo albums. Good music. DigMe, brad cook ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 14:48:34 -0400 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: kc live videos I probably won't be the first one to chime in on this question, but here it goes: If you haven't already broken into the DVD age, the King Crimson Deja Vrooom DVD is more than a good reason to start. This DVD is just fantastic, and not only does it contain a great set by the double trio, it also contains an interchangable menu of every incarnation of KC doing their version of 21CSM.. so you can have Belew singing and Cross doing the solo all in the same song played over some great photos of the band. Not to mention many many other features. It is loaded. As far as other live VIDEOS (these two will be coming to DVD though), there are two others: The Noise and Three Of A Perfect Pair. I have yet to see either, I'll wait for DVD. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:12:11 -0400 From: "Jordan Clifford" Subject: Re: covers KC has always had some of the most interesting and appropriate album covers of any band I've ever listened to. Just like with the actual KC albums, I cant pick a favorite (which why you haven't heard from me on that topic.. yet), but I'd love to list my favorites. I was attracted to the cover of Larks' Tongues in Aspic before I was attracted to the music within the cd case. It is still one of my favorite album covers, to go along with one of my favorite (if not my #1 favorite) KC album. But before I took notice to the LTiA cover, I was very interested in the trio of almost minimalist base color covers of the 80's albums. Discipline's cover is among the best of all, and I wear that symbol proudly on both a t-shit and in sticker form one the back of my car. And of course, ITCOTKC has to be one of the best album covers in the history of music. It's just so fitting for the music and the time period as well. It shocks and amazes, sparks interest and just freaks you out. Very powerful. Also, I never found the cover of S&BB or Red all that great (especially Red because I'm not a big fan of album covers that features a photo of the band), but I think whats more important about the art on these albums are the BACK of them. The dial on the back of Red with the last two marks in the color red is perfect for the music and where the band was at the time.. with Red being considered one of KC's heaviest, and Fripp considering it the closest that incarnation came to capturing their raw power in the studio, I'd say that image works beautifully. Above that, the back of S&BB featuring the art work by Tom Phillips containing the words "This night wounds time"... those words just pierce through my heart, I think they are absolutely brilliant. It's such a stunning way to present an album, I couldn't get over it when I first saw this album. Among my favorites is also the work for Absent Lovers and Epitaph. The more I think about it the more I realize that each KC album cover is special in its own right, and has caught my interest. I am glad to see that to this day this are making every aspect of their albums art, not just the music. I was very pleased by the cover of Level 5 and I'm interested to see what the new album will look like. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 03:17:58 -0500 From: "Jonathan Yandel" Subject: gabriel >Again, I ask, how exactly is Security "mediocre"? And I'm sorry you "hate >the videos" for Us - what about the music? Oh, and by the way, you missed >out So and Passion, the latter being the darkest and most impressive Peter >Gabriel recording of all. I agree. While Passion is definitely in my "top five" of-all-time pieces of music, Security is incredible, with Rhythm of the Heat, San Jacinto, and I Have the Touch. Us is still a great album--Peter put a lot of emotion into the songwriting--though not his best. >As for "I can only grin and feel happy that most of his fans of the last >15 years are unaware of his previously dismal and negative view of life ( >his true genius!)" - well, I've been a Gabriel fan since before his solo >career even started and I'm unaware of any "dismal and negative view of >life" in any of his work. Perhaps I'm not just listening to this stuff at >the same hyper-intelligent, superdismal level as you, Michael. While Gabriel has never been afraid to explore the darker side of the mind and life and general (what great artist hasn't?), I would hardly say that he has ever had a dismal and negative view of life. Dark, at times, yes, but he also was sure to explore the utter beauty that we humans are capable of as well. jonathan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 08:38:49 EDT From: GORTAY at aol dot com Subject: Krautrock To the guy who asked for Krautrock recommendations I can recommend a book by the sainted Julian Cope called 'Krautrocksampler'. It's a few years old but had loads of reprints so you should be able to find a copy quite easily. There is a tendency to lump all 70's German bands together but there was, of course a great diversity of sound ranging from the stripped down sound of Kraftwerk to sprawling Hawkwind sound-a-likes like Amon Duul and Guru Guru. The differences were to some extent influenced by which sector of the country the band came from. After the war what we now think of as West Germany was divided between the UK, USA and France. The industrial style of the bands from the US sector was influenced by GIs playing their Detroit soul records which copied the rhythms of the car production lines. The debt was repaid in the 80s when the likes Kraftwerk and Can were cited as an influence by people such as Derrick May who developed Detroit Techno. People often see 'Krautrock' as simply the German version of UK Prog rock but there were significant differences. Obviously you can take the first Tangerine Dream album as being strongly influenced by early Pink Floyd. But in many ways UK prog rock was backward looking socially and in many cases musically. Lost Empire and all that. In Germany, of course,the last thing people wanted to do was look backwards. As such they created the blueprint that has been followed, or adapted, by many bands creating experemental or chill-out music such as diverse as Future Sound of London, Tortoise and Scorn. Gordon Taylor ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1012 *********************************