Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1008 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1008 Tuesday, 20 August 2002 Today's Topics: Re: ROXY Collectors Club and Artist Shop part-crimson tribute Reviving Crimthreads 1000 Years Bill Bruford in Brazil!!! Gabriel/Levin/Schizoid Band Censorship and Peter Gabriel Long Wait Roxy Music: another sort of Roxy Music Censorship Various Topix The Night Watch; cover art Re: Nightwatch - Trun of the century Careful with that axe To The Person Who Recommended... RE: K.C., of course ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:41:49 -0500 From: Craig Subject: Re: ROXY >....their first two albums - 'Roxy Music' and 'For Your Pleasure'.... > They are two damned fine albums - two of my favourite's >actually. Yes indeed!!! Avant/prog "pop". Essential! Especially 'For Your Pleasure'. >I was under the impression that for fans of 'progressive' music >these are really the only two Roxy albums worth buying I can`t agree. Even after Eno left (& Eddie Jobson entered) all the `70`s albums ("Stranded, Country Life, Siren, and the wonderful live "Viva", which, btw, features John Wetton on bass), are all very good, & "progressive" in their own right .... Fantastic, just not as much so. >The only other >band i've come across that sounds like early Roxy is New Zealand's >finest, >Split Enz. Again it is their first two albums that are their >finest - 'Mental Notes' and 'Second Thoughts' I need to hear Mental Notes again. I do recall liking that one. Thanks for the memory jog, Swanmum. ~C ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 10:35:54 -0700 From: "David C." Subject: Collectors Club and Artist Shop One needs to take a look at sky rocketing prices set by CD retailers and the over abundance of Britney & JL titles flooding the market before you can appreciate specialty houses such as Artist Shop. Their link base for all past and present day musical heroes is a phenomenon in itself. And they have always come through for me, finding everything I order. Even up until the early 80's anything could be found on vinyl at Tower or even the local mom and pop shops. Nowadays if it doesn't represent a money making fabrication of a pop star all the stores do is carry 1 or 2 of the most currently released title, wait until the bin clears, then re-order. Never back ordering anything from the past. And they still flood the shelves with all the excess tinny 80's mastered CD's. I recall reading an interview with Fripp about the time he first heard one of the CD's mastered by Warner EG from the 80's releases. The sound was flat and lifeless. I applaud DGM for their service and hope they can keep it going. Fans of Bozzio, Bruford, Trey Gunn and Hatfield to name a few don't flock the stores when they hear of a new release. I have only seen the last 2 Bruford titles in the bins within the last 5 years and I have only seen Liquid Tension stocked a few times. For all you critics who post on ET and do nothing but vent and critique recording quality and editing tactics from Mr. Fripp and Co. you need to step back and feel the groove of the music industry and then refresh your thoughts. We got a good thing going here. Absorb it. Learn from it. Genesis is on its way to following suit by releasing live recordings and maybe YES will do the same. As far as the Artist Shop is concerned, I wish the local stores took this much pride in marketing and exposing "GREAT MUSIC". ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 15:34:59 -0600 From: "amelia ray" Subject: part-crimson tribute for those in the sf bay area: join dinosaur, the prog rock cover band, this thursday at club galia. club galia 8:45 mission @ 22nd san francisco $7 featuring songs by: king crimson rush yes jeff buckley? with teeze - a tribute to 80's hair bands (10pm) [ "Teeze"? I love it. -- Toby ] and presence - a led zeppelin tribute (11pm) http://www.ameliaray.net/dinosaur.html -- http://www.ameliaray.net '...general principles should not be based on exceptional cases.' -robert j. sawyer, calculating god -- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 19:04:58 -0400 From: "Ryan Tassone" Subject: Reviving Crimthreads In issue 1007, Tim Foster brought up some good questions to get the KC banter in this forum back on its feet. [ Gosh, have we been "prone" recently? -- Toby ] Most memorable KC show: the only KC show I've ever seen was last December at the Orpheum in Boston. It was the 8th, which was the anniversary of John Lennon's death, so part of me was hoping for "Free as a Bird," although I knew it probably wouldn't happen. Great show, though, although a bit short. Future developments for the band: I would personally like to see a Robert Fripp solo album with actual songs, a la Exposure, rather than just Soundscapes. He could easily get great players to appear on it; instead of Darryl Hall and Terre Roche, you'd have David Sylvian or somebody from Tool. I miss hearing the compositional side of Fripp that isn't King Crimson-oriented. The guy could probably write a mean string quartet piece, or even a symphony, although I know he never would, because he finds the latter medium constraining for the players. First KC experience: Listened to Yes ever since my aunt showed me "I've Seen All Good People" and "Close to the Edge," neither of which I liked at first. But I got into them, and started reading about them, and discovered that Bill Bruford joined this band called King Crimson. It was actually on the Yesyears VHS, where it had that brief footage of "Easy Money" and a random improv. So, I picked up Lark's Tongues in Aspic, which I also disliked at first. But then I found the unity of it, started to see how the songs flowed into each other, and was particularly affected by the final chord of "LTIA2." I still don't think the power of that moment has been equalled in any of the many recorded live performances of that piece. On the album, it's so...unexpected. Bruford just peters out on the drum kit, and Fripp is just quietly playing those eighth notes, and all of a sudden...BBBWWWAAAAANNNGGHHHHRRRRRZZZZ!!! LOL I love it. Songs with special meaning: This isn't really my personal pick, but it prompts me to ask...has anybody else noticed that on The Noise Live In Frejus tape, Adrian begins to weep at the end of "Heartbeat?" I think it's around the last time he sings "I remember the feeling." It's either a tear or it's just sweat, but when I first saw that, it really moved me, because I knew that the songs was about his wife, like Matte Kudesai. In fact, I think Adrian Belew is one of the only singer/songwriters in a rock band that openly wrote about homesickness in the majority of his most popular songs. We forget that these people have families, and they are called, almost cruelly, to leave them behind for extended periods of time. My top ten KC albums: 1. Discipline 2. Red 3. Lark's Tongues in Aspic 4. Starless and Bible Black 5. THRAK 6. Three of a Perfect Pair 7. The ConstruKction of Light 8. Beat 9. Islands 10. In the Court of the Crimson King That's all, Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 20:55:42 -0400 From: "Jim Loman" Subject: 1000 Years I just found a copy of Trey Gunn's "1000 "Years" in a used CD store. This is a really great CD that any Crimhead should love. I hadn't paid any attention to Trey until I saw the band on the last couple of tours, and now I finally realize what a great musician he is. How do "Third Star" and "Joy of Molybdenum" compare ? [ If I may chip in, I think "The Joy of Molybdenum" is superb. Tangerine Dream meets Crimson meets Jeff Beck meets Philip Glass meets ... erm... Trey Gunn I guess. -- Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 21:55:39 -0300 From: "Carlos H Moller" Subject: Bill Bruford in Brazil!!! Just in case: despite of the fact that there are no publicity about it, Bruford & Earthworks will be on tour on South America and, God bless, in Brazil!!!!! The gig will take place on 09/26/2002, in Sao Paulo. Well, I have my ticket already.. Carlos Henrique Moller Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer HYPERLINK "mailto:chmoller at terra dot com dot br"chmoller at terra dot com dot br HYPERLINK "mailto:chmoller at hotmail dot com"chmoller at hotmail dot com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 10:16:04 +0100 From: Sandy Starr Subject: Gabriel/Levin/Schizoid Band Re: Peter Gabriel's albums, I second the poster who defended SO and US. US was the first Gabriel album I owned, and very good it is too. One of the tracks on it features John Paul Jones, and might therefore be of interest to fans of his two albums on DGM. Somebody recommended PASSION SOURCES, an album which Gabriel compiled from music that inspired PASSION. I also recmmend PLUS FROM US, which in the same way was a companion piece to US. Among other things, PLUS FROM US features a solo stick piece by Tony Levin, entitled Lone Bear, that is not available anywhere else. The piece is in three sections, and the last section was adapted/expanded by Levin into one of the tracks on his album WATERS OF EDEN. Finally, I'm delighted to say that I'm going to the Canterbury Fayre this weekend, where I look forward to hearing the 21st Century Schizoid Band. Check out Sid Smith's coverage of their rehearsals in his diary at Krimson News. Not only will the Schizoid Band be playing material from ITCOTCK, but they will also be playing Let There Be Light, the brilliant final track of Ian McDonald's album DRIVER'S EYES. Are any other ETers going to the Canterbury Fayre? I might see you in the beer tent. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:31:24 +0200 From: "Armour, Richard" Subject: Censorship and Peter Gabriel There has been a lot of talk about moderation and censorship on the newsletter . As a long-time fan of KC and PG I would like to tell you a brief story. When PG 3 came out I went to the shops to buy it at one of the music stores in down town Johannesburg. I was a young student at the time at the University of The Witswatersrand in Jhb. I was disappointed, but not surprised to discover that all the copies had been taken by the security police. The song Biko was, for obvious reasons to the government of the time, unacceptable and was banned. However, the government of the time was very correct about banning records it banned them by catalogue number. So I was able to purchase a German import LP a bit later. Wits had its own campus radio station so what we used to do was go down to the station office and let them play my copy of the record and then take it and leave before the police spies pitched up to see who was doing what . When PG 4 came out I purchased a US import tape with the title 'security'. The track 'wallflower' hit so close to home in SA. For obvious reasons the album was not made available locally. Albums also banned were Pink Floyd - the wall ('we don't need no education' was not popular) Chris de Burgh - Spanish Train and other stories (Later released locally as 'Lonely sky and other stories ') A couple of years back PG came and sang Biko at the unveiling of a statue of Steven Biko in East London. This was a big deal with many members of the cabinet , opposition etc and had full coverage on National Tv news. (Needless to say some right wing moron painted the statue within days). So for what it's worth here's my observation - Freedom of speech includes the right to say no thanks, ignore someone or even summarise their views. Peter Gabriel wrote some great songs that made an impact outside his usual audience - sorry if it bothered you, but it helped a post adolescent rebel and a few friends find a voice at a strange point in our countries history. (Just as an aside I was not part of the struggle - I was just pissed of that I couldn't listen to what I wanted or see the bands I wanted). As far as I know they never banned anything by KC or FR - perhaps they just didn't get it ? all the very best Richard Armour 011 806 8832 011 806 8841 Fax richarda at aeci dot co dot za ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 08:35:31 -0500 From: wviland at thin-film dot com Subject: Long Wait Guess it gives us time to digress. Talk about Censorship, PG, World Peace, Saddam's stock pile of weapons of mass destruction, whatever. Because It's very difficult to find any real information to generate discussion. Even though Crimson is in studio. Just last year at this time we had Blogs, or diaries as they called them. This must have been regarded as a failed effort from Fripps DGM vision. I would guess that they will never expose themselves in that way again. In fact, this year the entire band will likely be facing rear stage as the venal leader continues. Expect Nothing...... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:25:07 -0500 From: Albert Oller Subject: Roxy Music: another sort of Roxy Music Hi All, >>Jonathan Smith mentioned an interest in Roxy Music's 'Artsy' material. Not 'loungy', but often arty, experimental, and a little punky (kind of a cross between Roxy Music and the Doors): Simple Minds. All of the lps prior to "Sparkle in the Rain" are very good. Regards, ago ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 08:54:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Frank P Subject: Censorship It's simple: ET is *not* a democracy. No one has the *right* to vote on anything having to do with it's contents. If you don't like it, ET isn't for you. Move on. Frank ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:26:59 -0400 From: bruce higgins Subject: Various Topix With respect to censorship & moderation, Mike Dickson wrote; >Perhaps it might also be prudent to point out that Toby, Dan and I make >nary a bean out of our efforts to keep ET and the associated web site >interesting and useful to its 5000+ readership. This stuff doesn't just >happen by itself - it takes someone to assemble the digests and the >bulletin, someone to send it all out, someone to handle the subscription >requests and someone to keep the web site together. Toby Dan and Mike display admirable judgement and have the patience of saints. Without their efforts, ETalk would be utterly unbearable. Thanks guys! [ Thanks, on behalf of all team. --Toby ] About The Artists Shop: In many respects Gary is a hero, promoting and distributing the artists and the kind of records many of us want to be out there. On the other hand, much of the material he advertises is old news to those of us who scrutinize ET and similar venues, and I don't really appreciate having to scroll through his long ads. Maybe Gary would be kind enough to send BRIEF updates, with pointers to his website??? [ If other ETers feel the same way, please tell Gary. Personally, your Moderator is happy with Gary's posts, but if people would like to ask Gary to post in a different manner, please tell him -- politely, of course! --Toby ] Favorite Records: I won't bore you with my list, other than to say that, IMO, the only really convincing studio record ('love letter') KC ever made was 'Discipline'. For me, KC is all about the live stuff (the 'hot dates'). 'Absent Lovers', 'The Great Deceiver', 'Heavy ConstruKction', 'Thrakattack', and 'Level5' in particular. And most of the KCCC releases dating from 1974 and after, notably 'Central Park', 'Nashville', 'the Roar of P4' and 'On Broadway'. Oh, and the best KC show I saw was the first night on The Pier, NYC June 1984. RF 30 feet tall on the Diamondvision screen... That night, they sliced open the top of my head, removed some portion of my brain, replaced it with larks tounges, aspic and neurotica, slammed the skullcap down and sent me reeling out into the city night, blinking... Runner up, the Double Trio in Rochester in November of '95. Yikes, there was something in Robert's tea that night. L. Bruce Higgins/55 Brown Road/Ithaca, NY 14850 lbh2 at cornell dot edu/ph:607-257-9244 fx:607-257-9246 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:54:37 -0400 From: David Vella Subject: The Night Watch; cover art And it was posted in a previous issue: > >Some body posed a question about the relationship between Night watch and > >Turn of the century. > >The song The night watch is about the characters in the famous painting of > >the same name by Van Goch. > >I don't know about Turn... > >Cheers, Dale > To which Stephanie Poe (and others) corrected: > Actually, "The Night Watch" was painted not by Van Gogh but by another > famous Dutch painter, Rembrandt. And to which it should be added two more things: 1) Not only was the artist misnamed but so was the painting. According to the Web Museum: The Night Watch is misnamed because of a very dark varnish that covered it until the 1940's. It should be titled "The Company of Captain Frans Cocq". It is a group portrait of a company of civil guards under the command of Cocq and his lieutenant, Willem van Ruytenburch (in light garb). and 2) I for one think this would have been a MUCH better (and more appropriate) painting to use as cover art for the King Crimson CD entitled 'The Night Watch' than the one they actually used by artist PJ Crook. Which raises an interesting (perhaps) topic for discussion: the cover art of their albums. I know it has been discussed in the past, but it has been a while. Maybe some new viewpoints can emerge? Some questions to get us started: Q1. Which albums, if any, do you think are enhanced by the artwork of PJ Crook? [My own answers: whereas I think it was a big mistake on the Nightwatch, I rather liked her work on the cover of 'Heavy ConstruKction'. I did NOT like the cover of Deja VROOOM and I am ambivalent on the cover of CirKus, Level Five, and VROOM VROOM. I haven't decided yet about the cover of Absent Lovers. I don't dislike the art, but I'm not sure it is a good match for the music contained therein. On the other hand, I absolutely love the cover of 'Epitaph'.] Q2. More generally, which of KC's album cover art did you like and why? What is you favorite KC album cover? [Some of my own answers: I was perhaps the least impressed with the 80's covers, and the cover of TCoL. My favorite covers must include Lizard and In the Wake of Poseidon. I never really liked the cover of ITCOTKC, although I must say it got my attention.] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:57:37 -0500 From: "Raul_F._Rueda" Subject: Re: Nightwatch - Trun of the century > Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:49:53 +0000 > From: "Dale cleary" > Subject: Nightwatch - Turn of the century. > > Some body posed a question about the relationship between > > Night watch and Turn of the century. Hello folks: "Turn Of The Century", one of my Yes favs of all time, is based on the Pygmalion myth and Puccini's "La Boheme". Take care, Raul ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:05:54 -0500 From: wviland at thin-film dot com Subject: Careful with that axe What's the skinny on this video? Does it exist? If so how can I find it? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:28:09 -0700 From: jrunkle at pinnaclepeak dot com (Jeff Runkle) Subject: To The Person Who Recommended... Someone out there recommended a cd by a cellist who incorporated loops in his compositions to create a very interesting effect, similar to soundscapes. I've reviewed several past issues of E.T. and can't find the post. If you read this, please email me with the name of the musician, the cd and recording label. All I can remember is that the company is in VT. Thanks, Jeff jeffrunkle at mindspring dot com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:44:45 -0600 From: "Christian Hess Araya" Subject: RE: K.C., of course In E.T. #1005, "DENNIS DONEGAN" wrote: > I remember when Crimson was hailed as "the next Beatles". > I must say that the Fab Four never made music as good, > or had the effect on me as King Crimson did. Hi, Dennis. I can't say much about the effect KC had on you, but remember the Beatles had a major effect on the *world*. Basically, they changed popular music forever. As much as I love KC too, I could never give them that much credit. Christian Hess San Jose, Costa Rica ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1008 *********************************