Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com
Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com
Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com
Precedence: bulk
From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com
To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com
Subject: Elephant Talk #1007


               E L E P H A N T    T A L K

        The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp
              and King Crimson enthusiasts

                       Number 1007

                  Sunday, 18 August 2002

Today's Topics:

   Re: Teenage Crim fans
   Re: Svante Pettersson's picture link
   Roxy Music
   Censorship
   res ipse loquitur
   Ultravox
   The Artist Shop
   <censored>
   KC album ranking
   Nightwatch, the Painting
   time to censor the censorship thread; question about Crimson and genre
   One More Dead Thread
   Re: Artist Shop and other odds/ends
   Re: Is this a King Crimson forum ?
   Re: Censorship
   Odds & Ends
   On Various Topics...
   Censorship
   Night Watch

------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A ---------------------

POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com

To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: 
   Send a message with a body of HELP to
     admin at elephant-talk dot com 
   or use the DIY list machine at
     http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/

To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription:
   Send a message to:
     help at elephant-talk dot com

ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/

Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at
     http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm

Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at
     http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml

You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at
     http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm

THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) 
  Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands.

The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors.
ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com).

------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A ---------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 13:24:26 -0400
From: "brad cook" <digme at lycos dot com>
Subject: Re: Teenage Crim fans

Hi everyone!  Haha, I beat everyone that emailed me because I am only 13
and started on Crim aged 9 (only 'I Talk to the Wind' and 'The Night
Watch', all else came 2 years later - but it's a start).

Actually I started listening to Crim before I was in kindergarten (about 5
years old) and haven't stopped since.  I used to love digging through my
parents old albums and I was totally fascinated by the cover of ITCOTKC.
Once I heard 21st Century Schizoid man with it's hard grooving guitar,
varying tempos and that distorted voice, fuhget about it.  I was hooked
because to a 5 year old that was the coolest song in the world (and it's
till pretty darn cool).  21 years later I'm still going strong.  I also dug
their Moody Blues as a child but it wasn't near as cool as Crim.

brad cook

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:35:27 +0200
From: Svante Pettersson <svante at deep-purple dot com>
Subject: Re: Svante Pettersson's picture link

Hi Jonathan,

My Crimson picture site is down at the moment because the company I worked
for and where I hosted the site, has gone bust. When I've found a new home
for the pics, I'll let everyone know.

Cheers,
/Svante

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:16:48 +0100 (BST)
From: njw100 at soton dot ac dot uk
Subject: Roxy Music

Jonathan Smith mentioned an interest in Roxy Music's 'Artsy' material.  Are
you

thinking of their first two albums - 'Roxy Music' and 'For Your Pleasure'
Jonathan?  They are two damned fine albums - two of my favourite's
actually.  I was under the impression that for fans of 'progressive' music
these are really the only two Roxy albums worth buying . . .  If you are on
the look out for music that sounds like or is similar to Roxy's art rock
period then 'Here Come The Warm Jets' - Eno's first solo album should be
investigated immediately as it is as good as 'Roxy Music' and 'For Your
Pleasure' and (for Crimheads) it contains a blistering Fripp guitar solo on
the

track 'Babys On Fire'.  John Wetton also features on bass.  The only other
band i've come across that sounds like early Roxy is New Zealand's finest,
Split Enz.  Again it is their first two albums that are their

finest - 'Mental Notes' and 'Second Thoughts' - but 'Dizrythmia', 'Frenzy'
and 'Time And Tide' also have much to offer, as well as the early
compilation 'Beginning Of The Enz'.  Recorded in 1975 and 76, 'Mental
Notes' and 'Second Thoughts' are frequently mandolin-led art-rock outings
that still have a freshness and innocence to them today.  The quirky
song-writing, obvious

pop sensibilities and odd choices for lyrical subjects can be compared to
Roxy's early output.  Roxy axe-man Phil Manzanera actually produced 'Second
Thoughts' and does a great job too.  Go get music fans!  Split Enz are a
great band.

Swanmum

np:  Pink Floyd - 'A Saucerful Of Secrets'

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 02:33:39 GMT
From: crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Mike Dickson)
Subject: Censorship

"Jason R. Thornton" <jthornton at ucsd dot edu> wrote...

> Moderation is completely unnecessary, and in this case, largely
> ineffective, partially because it's based on the opinions of a single
> individual who decides what does or does not make a "decent" read, rather
> than on some pre-established, majority agreed upon guidelines.  The real
> problem with the moderation on E-Talk is that is done without a
> reasonable
> rationale, with little regard to the feelings of most of the readership.

Jason -

If you feel the level of 'censorship' on ET is unacceptable then you are
completely at liberty to start up your own mailing list. If you want to
make it fully inclusive as you suggest than I'd give it about ten issues at
the most before you even stop reading it yourself. The problem is that
without some kind of moderation (as opposed to the rather more emotive term
you use) is that the level of static on the list would rapidly rise to a
level where no one would bother much with it.

As one who has run three other (non-KC) lists in the past and who
occasionally gets to moderate ET in Toby's absence, I can promise you that
ET is not immune to this kind of noise. Running an unfiltered service would
not only cause ET to be infested with spam, it would also cause us all to
read the sort of personal bickering that goes on in newsgroups, vastly
over-quoted posts with a 'me too' appended, or the ramblings of some people
who appear to be strangers to reason.

Perhaps it might also be prudent to point out that Toby, Dan and I make
nary a bean out of our efforts to keep ET and the associated web site
interesting and useful to its 5000+ readership. This stuff doesn't just
happen by itself - it takes someone to assemble the digests and the
bulletin, someone to send it all out, someone to handle the subscription
requests and someone to keep the web site together. You're fully entitled
to your opinion, but it doesn't stop it from being downright galling to
hear complaints like this aimed at us. It's times like this I sometimes
wonder why any of us bother at all.

If you are finding that ET fails to live up to its credentials as a 'decent
read' then feel free to unsubscribe. I am certain we can arrange for you to
have your subscription fees refunded.

Mike Dickson
Elephant Talk Administration and Distribution

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:55:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: tod scrod <princerupert666 at yahoo dot com>
Subject: res ipse loquitur

"Einstein's Relatives
Einstein's relatives
are relatively positive
his universal theory was
first espoused by
his cousin Oz"

Hey, dig it! Pete Sinfield's writing for them again!

HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:13:30 -0600
From: "Mary" <marybill at verinet dot com>
Subject: Ultravox

>Most Glam rock was just throwaway trash/pop manufactured bands made up of
unemployed sessions musicians in cheap Woolworth's mascara managed by some
evil svengali producer, recycling old rock'n'roll riffs for people who
couldn't afford the drugs to help them through prog rock double album sets.
As such it had a lot to recommend it but none of the bands (outside of
Bowie/Bolan/Roxy) ever produced any music worth sitting through more than
one side of a 7" single. However, moving away slightly, you might try the
any of the first three Ultravox albums. The first was produced by Brian Eno
and has clear affinity with the first couple of Roxy albums, although the
50s glam connotations are replaced with a neat proto punk ethos. The third
album was produced by Connie Plank who did stuff with Can etc.<

Glad to see Ultravox mentioned, a fine electro-rock outfit. John Foxx was
the singer on the first three albums; he had an Eno-inspired voice. The fist
album, Ultravox, featured the classic "I Want to Be a Machine." The second,
Ha! Ha! Ha!, featured "Hiroshima Mon Amour," a delicious slice of
techno-pop. The band got increasingly better, and Systems of Romance is
easily the best of the three Foxx-era discs, and is essential.

Foxx and guitarist Robin Simon soon quit, were replaced by singer/guitarist
Midge Ure. I saw this outfit at the Roxy in Hollywood. I was a bit perplexed
as the singer was playing some wailing guitar. I didn't know his identity
until Ultravox's fourth album, Vienna, came out. Vienna is also a very good
album. Vienna, and perhaps Lament, are all you really need to know about the
Ure-era of the band. If you have to have more, seek The Collection, a
greatest hits collection of the Midge Ure era (by the way Ure played through
a cute little VOX amp).

Adios,
Bronco Billy Jacobson

np: Systems of Romance

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:33:42 -0700
From: jrunkle at pinnaclepeak dot com (Jeff Runkle)
Subject: The Artist Shop

I must come to the aid of Gary Davis after Matthew Dunlop's blasting of The
Artist Shop in E.T. #1005.  Gary offers a vast inventory of music that most
of us wouldn't find on our own. Not only that, but he also includes a
sondbite, enabling his customers to sample a cd cut before making the
commitment to buy.  I'm participating in the E.T. Music Exchange. When I
formatted and recorded my contribution I noticed that of the twelve or so
pieces I included, eight were from cds I bought from The Artist Shop. I
stated this in my liner notes as an unsolicited testimonial to Gary for the
efforts he makes to expose us to music that we'll never hear on the radio.
So I ,for one, am a very satisfied customer who's greatful for his
messages.  I know what spam is and this ain't it.

Happy Kcrimming To All, And To All A Good Night.
Jeff Runkle
jeffrunkle at mindspring dot com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:25:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: rone at ennui dot org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!)
Subject: <censored>

>  Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:25:20 -0700
>  From: "Jason R. Thornton" <jthornton at ucsd dot edu>

  > >  Moderation is completely unnecessary,
  >You are obviously wrong.
  Why, specifically?  Because you say so?  Or just because you fear
  uncontrolled speech?

Wow, are those my only choices?  GADZOOKS, YOU SCOUNDREL!  THOU HAST
CORNERED ME LIKE A HOUND TO A STOAT!

  >  Nevertheless, you are certainly welcome to
  >start your own, "truly free" King Crimson mailing list, where that
  >meddlesome Toby fellow cannot muck about.
  Actually, not a bad idea.  Although, it should theoretically be easy enough
  for Toby to create moderated and unmoderated versions of ETalk.

In theory, perhaps, but in practice, it's not worth his time to create
two versions of ETalk, and it has already been established that the
effort he puts into moderation is welcome AND encouraged by most of us
here (or, at least, most of us who care to speak up).  So give it up
already.  Deal with it, or move along.

[ There will NEVER be an unmoderated version of ET -- Toby ]

  >Ah, but there ARE pre-established, majority-agreed-upon guidelines.
  >They were available to you when you subscribed.  By subscribing, we
  >all agree to them.
  The censorship here is done at the whim of a single individual.
  There are no votes when threads are considered "dead."  Subjects
  became "off limits" long after I subscribed.

Yes, you already said this.  I suspect you are repeating yourself
because you cannot find a more convincing way to express your ignorant
position.  Perhaps you think your "single individual" pleonasm will
lend your nattering some weight.

So, to sum up: Toby edits content sent to ET.  We like it that way.
You are a boogerhead.

rone

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 08:30:20 +0000
From: "mike mclaughlin" <mikemclaughli41 at hotmail dot com>
Subject: KC album ranking

This Seemed like a bit of an odd thing to do as I reckon all the KC stuff I
have (bar possibly one or two) have their good points, anyway here it is
(for those who want to know).

1) Red
2) Discipline
3) In The Court Of The Crimson King
4) Lark's Tongues In Aspic
5) THRAK
6) The Construction Of Light
7) Starless & Bible Black
8) Three Of A Perfect Pair
9) Beat
10) Lizard
11) In The Wake Of Poseidon
12) Islands
13) Level 5
I just don't understand what people see in Level 5 (I thought I got it but
then I realised I didn't).  Well that's all I have to say since I have yet
to pick up the new Remasters (how do you remaster something recorded as
recently as THRAK and why was it mixed the way it was if it wasn't right?).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 07:56:00 -0400
From: "Stephanie L. Poe" <slpoe at erols dot com>
Subject: Nightwatch, the Painting

>Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:49:53 +0000
>From: "Dale cleary" <daleinscale at hotmail dot com>
>Subject: Nightwatch - Turn of the century.

>Some body posed a question about the relationship between Night watch and
>Turn of the century.
>The song The night watch is about the characters in the famous painting of
>the same name by Van Goch.
>I don't know about Turn...
>Cheers, Dale

Actually, "The Night Watch" was painted not by Van Gogh but by another
famous Dutch painter, Rembrandt.

Stephanie Poe

slpoe at erols dot com
..................................
Uncertainty is absolutely necessary. - R. Fripp

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 10:48:39 -0300
From: "Jonathan Boulter" <jonathan dot boulter at sympatico dot ca>
Subject: time to censor the censorship thread; question about Crimson

I am not one to condone any form of censorship; it's clear that what
happens here is editing not censorship, so could I suggest that this thread
come to a close? It takes up far too much space, and frankly we are giving
too much credit to a clearly half-baked idea by responding so endlessly.

I realize, of course, by posting this message about ending this thread I am
contributing to its longevity: ah! the aporia!

Let's get back to talk about Fripp's personality, the relative merits of
first-stage Crimson, discussions about whether Larks' Tongues is better than
Red, or what the hell happened on Beat ("strange spaghetti", indeed). These
are the issues!

Here's my question: to what extent does anyone out there think that Crimson
is a metal band? We talk of course about progressive music (and some may
listen to what is now called "progressive metal": I think, say, of a band
like Opeth), but can we talk about Crimson as a metal band? Proto-metal?
Certainly, they were contemporaries with Deep Purple and Sabbath (I'm not
necessarily saying these bands are metal either) but do we really know how
to "read" Crimson generically? I expect this question has been asked many
times here before, but what genre of music do we think Crimson is playing?
This question looks forward to the title of the next album...

As I write this I'm listening to The Nightwatch, Larks' Tongues, Part Two:
certainly there are metal elements (power chords) but it sounds a bit too
much like bits of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring to be merely metal...

Just some musings.

Jonathan Boulter

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 10:40:55 -0400
From: Dave Hvizda <dhvizda at knology dot net>
Subject: One More Dead Thread

I must heartily agree with Mr. [CENSORED]'s remarks regarding the
[CENSORED] of this newsletter. His point where he stresses the importance
of [CENSORED], and [CENSORED] is the most logical argument regarding
[CENSORED] I have ever read.  If everyone would only [CENSORED], then this
would be a [CENSORED].  Now if Toby would only [CENSORED].

Additionally, I know we are all in agreement that [CENSORED] is the best
[CENSORED] ever to play the [CENSORED] in KC. How anyone could ever believe
that [CENSORED] could ever hold a candle to [CENSORED] is beyond my
comprehension. [Censored] should never have left [CENSORED] to join
[CENSORED] in the first place. I mean [CENSORED] completely [CENSORED] !  I
sure we are all in agreement the best KC lineup ever was [CENSORED],
[CENSORED], [CENSORED], [CENSORED] and [CENSORED]. Everyone else completely
[CENSORED]. Especially [CENSORED]!

Please remember that Toby is doing this because he enjoys putting out this
newsletter.  It's free, at least for us, but I'm sure it costs Toby a fair
amount of his time and probably some cash.  Anyone who wishes to continue
to give Toby a hard time may [CENSORED] my [CENSORED].  Don't go away mad,
just go away.

Toby, keep up the good work.

Begin flame war in 3...2... 1....

Back to lurk mode

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:05:16 EDT
From: JohnWylam at aol dot com
Subject: Re: Artist Shop and other odds/ends

Hi, All --

    I'll second (or third, or fourth, as the case may be) the defense of Gary
Davis.  I always look forward to the Artist Shop e-mails; if I gave in to
every temptation to buy from his site, I would go quickly if happily broke.
Between Gary and DGM, I'm one Very Happy CD purchaser out in the wilds of NW
Ohio.
    The fave-disc thread is interesting on a purely subjective level.
Personally, since I first saw KC in '73 and again in '74 (the latter on what
must've been a terribly frustrating night for the band -- they played Curtis
Hixon Convention Center in Tampa, and were supposed to headline until rumor
has it that the management for Poco, then second on the bill that night,
informed the concert promoter that Poco would walk unless they were elevated
to headliner status.  This was apparently done, and after Robin Trower's set,
KC's equipment was duly set up and the band walked on in, shall we say, a
furious mood.  They began with "Great Deceiver" and went on to deliver what I
still consider, IMHO, the finest one-hour set I have ever heard -- still), I
have to admit a personal preference for the music from that period.  *LTiA*
comes closest to free music, *SABB* established the band's possibilities as a
quartet, thoroughly different from *LTiA* yet powerful, especially the drama
and emotional content of "Fracture," a Ph.D course in tension and release,
and I've often imagined what the band would've done with McDonald (and maybe
Charig and Evans, at least in one listener's dreams), especially on tour in
further support of *Red.*  Oh, my heart....It might've been a return to a
freer aesthetic....it might've been.  From this distance, it probably doesn't
matter.  A happy thought nonetheless.
    And one more note in support of Toby's work.  I'll be brief here.  You do
a job few of us would want.  Your job is somewhat like that of a referee;
some people might not agree with your calls every time, but somebody has to
make them.  I know the virtual-drink thread's long dead, but honestly if we
ever met in a local, it'd be my pleasure to buy you a round for real.
    Looking forward to all that's soon to come --

John Wylam

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:30:10 -0400
From: Tim <tfoster6272 at comcast dot net>
Subject: Re: Is this a King Crimson forum ?

> If so, I must say that I haven't read much about them on it.
> Dale.

Couldn't have said it better! Granted, KC is rather quiet right now, it's
interesting to see what topics come up when there isn't much news from the
group. (its been more of a Peter Gabriel newsletter recently!).

Since there isn't much to talk about regarding new developments, this would
be a good time to hash over some broader questions and an opportunity to
share some opinions.

The "album ranking" is a great place to start, I'll have to work on my list.
Here's some questions to get us talking:
1) What is the most memorable KC show you've seen? (and what made it so
memorable?)
2) What new developments would you like to see for KC in the future?
Additional instrumentation? New members (possible candidates?)
Compositional/improvisational possibilities?
3) What was you first experience with KC? How did you get to know them?
4) What songs have special meanings for you, either because they "move" you
or you associate them with something special?

Hopefully we can start some more KC related threads--at least to tide us
over until we have some new events to discuss!

And now my 2 cents on the whole censorship thread. Can we PUHLEEEZE drop
this now? This has got to be the silliest thread I've read in quite a while.
Not that it doesn't have  a tiny bit of merit, but I think that was all
pretty much settled a long time ago (i.e., this is an EDITED newsletter,
nothing more, nothing less).

Someone suggested that the moderator shouldn't kill a thread (I disagree)
and that it should be voted on. Well, count my vote for killing this thread,
let's talk about KC for a change. After all, that's why we all subscribed to
this newsletter in the first place, right?

Thanks-
Tim

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 16:20:24 -0400
From: Gary Davis <artshop at artist-shop dot com>
Subject: Re: Censorship

At 07:00 AM 8/17/02 GMT, Matthew wrote:
>
>Although I do not remember subscribing, I will concur that most likely I did
>and I apologize for the misconcepcion. Please accept this is a full apology
>and remission of my former accusations Mr Davis, I realize you are doing the
>music community a service through your website and I'm not sure what crawled
>up -my- shorts and died :)
>

Thanks, Matthew.  I appreciate your understanding on this in both your
public and private notes to me.

Gary

**************************************************************
                          Gary Davis
The Artist Shop                              The Other Road
http://www.artist-shop.com          artshop at artist-shop dot com
phone: 877-856-1158, 330-929-2056	   fax:330-945-4923
              INDEPENDENT PROGRESSIVE MUSIC!!!
**************************************************************
     Artist Shop Radio <http://www.artist-shop.com/radio>
       Check out the latest Artist Shop newsletter at
            http://www.artist-shop.com/news.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 09:48:10 +0100
From: "Mike Dennis" <mike at frinton11 dot freeserve dot co dot uk>
Subject: Odds & Ends

Hi

Dale Cleary in 1006 mentions The Night Watch is about a painting by Van Goh,
actually its Rembrandt.

On a more positive note I totally agree with Dale about the postings, more
on KC please.

In danger of just saying "me too" I agree with Darin Lemieux's album list.

Finally, moderation, censorship or just plain good old editing? You've
managed OK for a 1000 issues, so just carry on and stop using posts where
people have nothing to add to the debate.

Mike

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 13:20:28 GMT
From: et-read at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Mike Dickson)
Subject: On Various Topics...

> I still play my LP version of Earthbound -- though I've transferred it
> to CD-R for convenience and wear-saving reasons. What I'd like to know
> is whether the CD version is identical to the LP, since in transferring
> it, one I noticed is the number of times I had to reduce (again) the
> recording level. That thing is SO up against the limiters!

As far as I can tell, it's identical. Given that the original was
recorded onto a cassette deck (that presumably was peaking all over the
place) it would be nigh on impossible to fully 'restore' the sound,
although it's fair to say that the new CD has cleaned it up a bit. KCCC
subscribers might be able to compare their 'Earthbound' copies to the
'Jacksonville' release. It's about the same difference.

Gary Davis <artshop at artist-shop dot com> wrote...

> However, Mr. Dunlop levels a very serious accusation here which I feel
> cannot go without response.  He has basically accused me of harvesting
> e-mail addresses for my mailing list and using Elephant Talk for that
> purpose.

As ET's subscription-meister it's probably time for me to remind our
faithful readers that ET's subscription list is not only *never* made
available to anyone, it's also completely inaccessible to anyone but
myself. If anyone is getting spammed then it's nothing to do with your
ET subscription.

"Jason R. Thornton" <jthornton at ucsd dot edu> wrote...

> Actually, not a bad idea.  Although, it should theoretically be easy
> enough for Toby to create moderated and unmoderated versions of ETalk.

I may as well nip this one in the bud right now. It isn't going to
happen; not now, not never.  :-)

bwilmot at netzero dot net wrote...

> I am on the fence regarding USA.

So am I. Oh, you mean the *album*...  :-)

> 1  Is it "audio verite" or are the Eddie Jobson overdubs on it?

The Jobson overdubs are all still there.

> 2 Is Easy Money complete or faded out?

It's faded out.

> 3 Fripp once said that that the old version of Asbury Park was an edit
> of a longer improv.  Is the new version longer than before?

As far as I can tell, the only differences between th vinyl USA nd the
new release is that (1) the new release has the 'No Pussyfooting' intro,
(2) the new release has a version of 'Fracture' that will blow your
speakers apart and (3) it closes with a superb take on 'Starless'. Other
than that it seems to be the ame album.

And yes, I bemoan the fade-out on 'Easy Money' as well.

Mike Dickson
Elephant Talk Administration, Distribution and Occasional Fascist Censor

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:22:45 +0200
From: thony dot christie at t-online dot de (Thony Christie)
Subject: Censorship

Dear Jason R. Thornton, I have a serious question to your posts in ET
concerning that which you choose to label censorship. ET is a private
newsletter founded, produced and edited by Toby for what ever reasons that
he has for doing so. This being the case what do you believe gives you the
right to tell Toby how to run HIS newsletter? You purport to be interested
in defending free speech and some sort of rights which you at no point
define, but reserve for yourself the right to tell Toby what to do with his
own private life. I find this totally extraordinary and can in no way
understand how you could possibly justify your unbelievable behaviour. Do
the world and its inhabitants have to bow to the dictates of King Jason the
first or how is one to interpret your attitude. If you wish rights for
yourself and in the name of other people, for whom you without justification
claim to speak, you first have to learn to grant them to other people
including Toby. Think about it! You obviously have not done so up till now.
Regards Thony C.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 14:05:35 +0200
From: "john veerman" <john_veerman at hotmail dot com>
Subject: Night Watch

Dear Dale,

Don't be silly any longer and have a look at your encyclopedia : There's a
time gap of 2 and a half centuries between Rembrandt Harmensz van Rijn and
Vincent van Gogh, the first being the actual painter of the Night Watch,
around 1642.
Was it really Abe Lincoln who was chief commander on D-day WWII [wink]?

Greetings, John

------------------------------

End of Elephant Talk Digest #1007
*********************************