Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1006 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1006 Saturday, 17 August 2002 Today's Topics: Earthbound released Re: Ranking Albums Re: Censorship Re: The Momur -- Adrians Wife Hates Crimson Mr Tea and PG Re: Censorship John Miller Re: Momur More on censorship Is this a King Crimson forum ? apreciation Pete Gabriel/KC album listing Nightwatch - Turn of the century. USA Reissue Fw: Censorship ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:32:07 +0100 From: "Manek Dubash" Subject: Earthbound released I still play my LP version of Earthbound -- though I've transferred it to CD-R for convenience and wear-saving reasons. What I'd like to know is whether the CD version is identical to the LP, since in transferring it, one I noticed is the number of times I had to reduce (again) the recording level. That thing is SO up against the limiters! And, you know, I don't care about the lo-fi aspect of it. The music is fantastic, some exquisite playing from Mel and the whole thing grinds exceeding raunchy. Wish I'd been there -- I only ever saw KC once, back in the Lark's Tongue era. So come on KC, isn't it time for a European/UK tour? Manek Dubash ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:57:41 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Darin Lemieux" Subject: Re: Ranking Albums Hey guys, it's been a LONG while since I've posted anything here, but back again I am. I just noticed a post by Phil DiMaso about his album rankings. Interesting list, and I agree with most of it. However, I wouldn't place Red so high on the list. It has some strong tracks (Red, Fallen Angel, Starless), but the album is too short, I find. It could've used one more song - or an improv that found its direction quicker than providence did. I personally Rank S&BB as number one. Most diversity on one Crimson record, best improvs, and strong material from beginning to end. It also has the most "Oh My God!" moments of the '73 band, I find. Anyway, Here's my list: 1. Starless & Bible Black 2. Larks' Tongues in Aspic 3. Discipline 4. In the Court of the Crimson King 5. Lizard 6. Thrak 7. Red 8. The ConstruKction of Light 9. Three of a Perfect Pair 10. Islands 11. In the Wake of Poseidon 12. Beat Beat, I still think, was an abortion of an album. Has its moments, but on the whole, nothing worth my money. Islands has a lot of beautiful moments, but alot of weak ones as well. Formentera, Sailor's, and Islands = Strong, Letters, Ladies, Prelude = meh or weak. In The Wake has Devil's Triangle on it. In my mind, that's enough to put it second last, no offense to anyone who loves it. I still think Pictures, Poseidon, Cadence and Cat Food are strong tracks, but I can't abide Devil's Triangle. I still think that album would've been better off with two shorter but more epic tracks (say two five minute pieces made in a similar fashion to something like Cirkus from Lizard). Speaking of Lizard, I used to think the album was one that was poor in songs and production. But it seems the mroe I hear it, the more things I find to love about it. Cirkus is delightfully haunting, Indoor Games is comical while still conatining some great music, Happy Family is a good effort to be sure - I love the song's structure, but production's a bit of a miss. It's still a good listen. Lady of the Dancing Water is gorgeous - but Haskell doesn't totally do it justice - Boz's later live versions were well done. Then side 2: the Lizard suite. Many wonderful moments here. Differnet in structure than other 20+ minute songs from the likes of Pink Floyd and Yes, it's an interesting track to listen to, and I rather enjoy it Especially the comical ending (Big Top). Anyway, that's it for now. Later all, Darin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:13:33 -0400 From: Gary Davis Subject: Re: Censorship At 06:58 AM 8/13/02 GMT, Matthew Dunlop wrote: >Local bands... fine. Artist Shop.... highly annoying. I already somehow get >this guy's horrendously formatted and very long updates (usually in more >than one part) whenever they come out. I'm guessing he got my email the >first time I posted. So we have a guy who's using the newsletter for a >spamming list, and then the newsletter hosts his own advertisements? Personally I don't really get upset if people don't care for The Artist Shop Newsletter. They either like it or they don't and get it or not as they wish. So I don't feel particularly compelled to comment if people say the don't care for it. However, Mr. Dunlop levels a very serious accusation here which I feel cannot go without response. He has basically accused me of harvesting e-mail addresses for my mailing list and using Elephant Talk for that purpose. This is total lie! The Artist Shop Newsletter is a subscription only newsletter. You cannot get The Artist Shop Newsletter without actively requesting to get it! And if you don't like it, a simple request is all it takes to take one's address off the list. Mr. Dunlop tries to suggest that he's getting it because I took his address off of Elephant Talk. This couldn't be further from the truth. Mr. Dunlop is getting The Artist Shop Newsletter because on Tuesday, March 19 of this year HE PERSONALLY SUBSCRIBED TO IT!!! I'll be generous and allow that perhaps he simply doesn't remember this, and if he requests it, I'll provide him the proof. At which time I would hope that he would retract his false accusation. Other than that, I would have to concur with his suggestion that I'm not much of a web designer. Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com artshop at artist-shop dot com phone: 877-856-1158, 330-929-2056 fax:330-945-4923 INDEPENDENT PROGRESSIVE MUSIC!!! ************************************************************** Artist Shop Radio Check out the latest Artist Shop newsletter at http://www.artist-shop.com/news.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:20:06 -0400 From: Jeremy Weissenburger Subject: Re: The Momur -- Adrians Wife Hates Crimson On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 wviland at thin-film dot com wrote: > When I listen to 'The Momor' it seems its a bit of a satire. Adrian > endlessly practicing Crimson type scales, while the wife (Martha I think) > goes nuts. Breaks his favorite guitar, try's to kill him, and eventually > yells, "STOP IT"!!!!!! at the end. I had asked Adrian what a "Momur" was when I met him once, and he had said it was how his daughter said the word "monster" when she was little. Perhaps it was a satire of their fights. ---Jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:53:54 -0400 From: "Robert Bennett" Subject: Mr Tea and PG Thank you Sean for responding to Mr. Tea's statements about Peter Gabriel. I was going to and then got side-tracked. Mr. Tea has his right to his opinion, but I for one feel it is very misguided and simply unfair. In my humble opinion, Gabriel has not made a bad album. Some are better than others, but the first four albums are wonderful. "So" and "Us" are very good too - although some of the tunes like "Big Time" and "Steam" don't do much for me. Personally, I think "Security" is his best work and anything but dull. Also, his live shows are simply great. The secret World tour was the best show I have ever seen in an arena (Pink Floyd is a close second). In general, I dislike arena shows - I'm too spoiled with smaller venues. However, Gabriel pulled it off wonderfully. Mr. Tea, I hate to say, you are very very wrong in your assessments of Gabriel. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:04:51 -0400 From: "Dave Lane" Subject: Re: Censorship Matthew Dunlop" wrote: >Artist Shop.... highly annoying. I already somehow get >this guy's horrendously formatted and very long updates (usually in more >than one part) whenever they come out. I'm guessing he got my email the >first time I posted. So we have a guy who's using the newsletter for a >spamming list, and then the newsletter hosts his own advertisements? And so >when i finally did think I might order something from him, I found out his >website was so poorly designed and terribly executed I didn't feel safe >sending him my money anyway. I've successfully used Gary's [poorly designed and terribly executed?] web site numerous times to order items that I've had a hard time finding elsewhere, and I'll continue to do so. Spammers typically target anybody they can find; the Artist Shop ET articles are always on-topic and of interest to KC/DGM fans. That said, I doubt that a johnny-come-lately music merchandiser would still be granted the same leeway as the Artist Shop, which has been posting since ET #286. There seems to be some "grandfathering" being applied. OK by me. NP: forever sharp and vivid --Dave ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 16:26:09 EDT From: GORTAY at aol dot com Subject: John Miller Re: recent death of John Miller. I'd like to add myself to the list of people who have written in expressing sorrow at the death of John Miller whose paintings adorned the Soundscapes series. Cover artwork seems to have become less important since the days when everything came out on 12 inch squares but the combination of Fripp and Miller was very evocative. I was reminded of the recent death of Josh Kirby who contributed the covers to Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels. At the time Pratchett said (something along the lines of) although he invented the Discworld it was Kirby who brought it to life. Contrary to what was said in a previous ET, however, Miller was actually born in London and moved to Cornwall in 1958. Biographical details are available on the net so I won't take up your time with them here. As most ETers are not from the UK they may be unaware that the town of St. Ives in Cornwall where Miller lived for many years, has a long tradition as a haunt of artists. Most paint sea scapes and enthuse at the quality of the light but Barbara Hepworth the sculptor also lived there and there is a sculpture garden displaying her work in the town. A branch of the Tate, the UKs premier art gallery, opened there in recent years. St Ives is relatively close to the erstwhile Fripp World Headquarters in Wimbourne, about 200 miles, though I don't think they have much in common culturally. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 21:22:27 -0400 From: John Reinert Nash Subject: Re: Momur At 6:58 AM +0000 8/13/02, wviland at thin-film dot com wrote: >When I listen to 'The Momor' it seems its a bit of a satire. Adrian >endlessly practicing Crimson type scales, while the wife (Martha I think) >goes nuts. Breaks his favorite guitar, try's to kill him, and eventually >yells, "STOP IT"!!!!!! at the end. It certainly is a funny song about marital strife, but there's a little more to the story. His wife at the time was Margaret (see also "Two Hands"), who he has since divorced (see also "The War in the Gulf Between Us"). "Momur" was little Audie Belew's word for monster. Martha (see also "May 1, 1990" and "I See You") is the woman he married some years after. I'd hazard that she likes Crimson. :-) -john reinert nash ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:25:20 -0700 From: "Jason R. Thornton" Subject: More on censorship Someone said: > > Moderation is completely unnecessary, > >You are obviously wrong. Why, specifically? Because you say so? Or just because you fear uncontrolled speech? > Nevertheless, you are certainly welcome to >start your own, "truly free" King Crimson mailing list, where that >meddlesome Toby fellow cannot muck about. Actually, not a bad idea. Although, it should theoretically be easy enough for Toby to create moderated and unmoderated versions of ETalk. >Ah, but there ARE pre-established, majority-agreed-upon guidelines. >They were available to you when you subscribed. By subscribing, we >all agree to them. The censorship here is done at the whim of a single individual. There are no votes when threads are considered "dead." Subjects became "off limits" long after I subscribed. [ Please, please, please. I am just the EDITOR! Is it SOOOOO difficult for people to accept this? I EDIT!!! Like in, you know, NEWSPAPERS and MAGAZINES and stuff. "E D I T I N G" : please look it up in your favourite dictionary if you feel confused about the meaning. -- Toby ] someone else said: >Nearly every post is worth reading and fhe entire spectrum of >points of view is covered in a literate, good-natured and thoughtful >way. How do you know that, if you haven't seen what made it through? Will this post make it through, or does your moderator fear honest debate? [ PUH-LEEEEEEZE. There is really no point debating this moderation issue. ET is a moderated (= edited = censored = controlled) newsletter. End of story. If this doesn't suit people, well then I'm sorry and I would politely suggest they start their own newsletter or whatever it is they want. Just choose whatever space suits you and please stop DISSING spaces that don't suit you. It's a waste of energy and (worse, haha!) it's reeeely BORING. -- Toby ] >People moaning about the moderation simply haven't thought through >their case, in my opinion. Nope. The people defending moderation haven't thought at all. They're being told what to think, and accept it lazily. and someone else: >Ok so what crawled up this guy's shorts and died? Nice, intelligent response. >Not that I don't feel >disappointed at the death of some threads (and at the enticing nature of >the proclaimed "dead threads" that I missed), but this is a little too >indignant for the nature of the forum. Indignant? How? Oh, of course, anything that is not "party-line" is considered hostile and angry. I merely said it was unnecessary and why. Sheesh. Disagreement does not indicate indignation. Get over your fanboy insecurities. --Jason "Only the few know the sweetness of the twisted apples." - Sherwood Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 16:35:45 +0000 From: "Dale cleary" Subject: Is this a King Crimson forum ? If so, I must say that I haven't read much about them on it. Dale. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:56:59 -0500 From: "Jonathon Smith" Subject: apreciation Thanks to everyone who gave me some suggestions on Peter Gabriel and even the glam/loungy stuff. For now, I'm probably going to buy "Melt." I listened to it at our local record store, and it sounded pretty nice. Thanks again. Jonathon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:58:34 +0000 From: "Anna Rose" Subject: Pete Gabriel/KC album listing Really I agree with anyone that says PG3 is the best (although I'd also go for the live albums, I think they're excellent apart from 'I don't remember' which is far preferable in the studio version) and I completely disagree with anyone that is slagging off Gabriel in any way at all. I don't know how far I'm entitled to select my favourite Crim albums, having heard no more of the modern stuff than THRAK, but here goes with what I know. 1. Islands 2. Red 3. LTIA 4. Starless 5. Lizard 6. Thrak 7. In the Wake and so on until I cant be bothered to type any more. Thanks -Anna. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:49:53 +0000 From: "Dale cleary" Subject: Nightwatch - Turn of the century. Some body posed a question about the relationship between Night watch and Turn of the century. The song The night watch is about the characters in the famous painting of the same name by Van Goch. I don't know about Turn... Cheers, Dale ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 23:12:24 -0600 From: bwilmot at netzero dot net Subject: USA Reissue Hi, I am on the fence regarding USA. This may be premature but I was wondering if anyone can answer the following. 1 Is it "audio verite" or are the Eddie Jobson overdubs on it? 2 Is Easy Money complete or faded out? 3 Fripp once said that that the old version of Asbury Park was an edit of a longer improv. Is the new version longer than before? If you care to write direct my email is hocow at aol dot com. I don't ever use the netzero address listed above. Or I'll be watching ET. Thanks to anyone who replies. Brad Wilmot ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:33:15 -0400 From: "Matthew Dunlop" Subject: Fw: Censorship >However, Mr. Dunlop levels a very serious accusation here which I feel >cannot go without response. He has basically accused me of harvesting >e-mail addresses for my mailing list and using Elephant Talk for that >purpose. This is total lie! The Artist Shop Newsletter is a subscription >only newsletter. You cannot get The Artist Shop Newsletter without >actively requesting to get it! And if you don't like it, a simple request is all >it takes to take one's address off the list. >Mr. Dunlop tries to suggest that he's getting it because I took his >address off of Elephant Talk. This couldn't be further from the truth. Mr. >Dunlop is getting The Artist Shop Newsletter because on Tuesday, March 19 of this >year HE PERSONALLY SUBSCRIBED TO IT!!! I'll be generous and allow that >perhaps he simply doesn't remember this, and if he requests it, I'll >provide him the proof. At which time I would hope that he would retract his false >accusation. Although I do not remember subscribing, I will concur that most likely I did and I apologize for the misconcepcion. Please accept this is a full apology and remission of my former accusations Mr Davis, I realize you are doing the music community a service through your website and I'm not sure what crawled up -my- shorts and died :) ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1006 *********************************