Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1005 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1005 Tuesday, 13 August 2002 Today's Topics: USA & Earthbound released Svante Pettersson's picture link Crimson Blue just an observation... K.C., of course. You have Greatly Misunderstood the Purpose of Elephant Talk Re: USA on more than vinyl Moderation and PG Glam Crafty Article /Edits/USA / Earthbound/ Fripp and Blondie / John Miller Re: Censorship Ranking Albums Re: USA on more than vinyl The Momur -- Adrians Wife Hates Crimson ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 10:08:11 +0100 (BST) From: Kevin Marriott Subject: USA & Earthbound released I found the new USA and Earthbound in HMV in Solihull (UK) yesterday(8th August). Odd, seeing as the release date was supposed to be in September. I bought USA (couldn't resist, I've never heard it) but I'll use all my will power to wait for it from DGM. :-) Nice cover, interestingly it doesn't say '30th Anniversary Edition' anywhere on the sleeve. ===== -- Kev Music reviews: www.deepthought3.supanet.com/music ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 21:17:14 -0300 From: "Jonathan Boulter" Subject: Svante Pettersson's picture link This may be one of the dullest questions ever posed here, but am I the only one who has trouble with Svante Pettersson 's link in the Photos page of ET? I'd really like to see these pics and I cannot, in either of my browsers. Apologies if this question has already been asked and answered. On another note, I notice that no one has posited any reading material for the Crimson boys. No idea? At all? Gadzooks. Best, Jonathan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 08:40:13 -0700 From: "Cort and Deb Snyder" Subject: Crimson Blue According to an internet source, a CD by King Crimson titled "Crimson Blue" will be released in Japan on October 9. I assume this is the new EP. Cort Snyder ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 00:10:59 +0100 From: "phill lister" Subject: just an observation... Just an observation... Been listening to Fripp on Fracture on USA. The famous Moto Perpetuo. He's got two guitar parts going at the same time and played simultaneously. THREE in fact! I've never understood the link between The 70's group and the Discipline band with Belew. . Now I've got it. Another guitarist who can impersonate several at once! Multiple multiple guitar parts! Belew really does seem an obvious and inspired choice - joining in the manic written stuff and spraying his own bits when the opportunity arises. I loved Fripp's contribution to that old surfy number on Joe Satrian's latest. And the opposite pole is his contribution to John Paul Jones' Thunder(thing). Controlled framework, wild performance! Night... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 21:25:55 -0400 From: "DENNIS DONEGAN" Subject: K.C., of course. I am a born-again crim-head. When first discovering them with "In The Wake Of Poseidon", and THEN "In The Court Of The Crimson King", I was stunned to hear this after years of top-forty AM stations. I paid attention to the band up to and including "Larks Tongues...", then losing track until "Discipline", "Beat" and "Three Of A Perfect Pair" . Then, gone again. A while back I saw a poster for a concert at the local hall for the Level Five tour, got a seat, and saw the greatest rock concert of my life. No band in the world compared to the one I saw that night. I hate to sound sycophantic but after that show I began to buy any K.C. recording I could find. I had gotten "Heavy Construkction" before the night of the show. I've worked my way back to the older albums, and got a lot of the old concerts on disc. My copy of "Level Five" arrived the same day as "Epitaph". Interesting to hear the old and the new at the same time. The point of all this is this. I often hear Crimson fans debate the "best albums in order" from best to least. I got to say that this a futile endeavor. Right now I'm listening to disc 2 of Heavy Const. and can't imagine them doing any thing better. But,and I know it's trite, when I put on the next one I'll feel the same way. At the risk of sounding like a snob, I must say that the fans of a band like K.C. should surely be beyond this list making. Kiss fans I can understand. Look, I don't know a thing about music except what sounds good. I remember when Crimson was hailed as "the next Beatles". I must say that the Fab Four never made music as good, or had the effect on me as King Crimson did. Then there are the projekcts 1,2,3,4, "X". The thing just keeps on growing.Hey, just an opinion,right? So stop listing and just listen, we're all big kids here,OK. --- DENNIS DONEGAN --- dennispca at earthlink dot net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 19:45:29 -0700 (PDT) From: rone at ennui dot org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Subject: You have Greatly Misunderstood the Purpose of Elephant Talk > Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 08:25:11 -0700 > From: "Jason R. Thornton" > > Moderation is completely unnecessary, You are obviously wrong. Nevertheless, you are certainly welcome to start your own, "truly free" King Crimson mailing list, where that meddlesome Toby fellow cannot muck about. > and in this case, largely ineffective, partially because it's based > on the opinions of a single individual who decides what does or does > not make a "decent" read, rather than on some pre-established, > majority agreed upon guidelines. Ah, but there ARE pre-established, majority-agreed-upon guidelines. They were available to you when you subscribed. By subscribing, we all agree to them. > But again, this is a Robert Fripp worship list, and some people feel the > need to emulate Fripp right down to his control-freak tendencies. AD HOMINEM - 3 POINTS! rone ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 23:32:56 -0400 From: Jeremy Weissenburger Subject: Re: USA on more than vinyl On Sat, 3 Aug 2002 11:50:00 EDT Bknt at aol dot com > Gary Davis, in his artist's shop newsletter, mentions that "USA was only ever > released on vinyl." While we all appreciate Davis's enthusiasm, his statement > conflicts with my recollections of listening to USA in that wonderfully > ancient audio format, 8 track stereo. It was also available on regular audio cassette format, as I had a copy of it until recently. --Jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 10:04:59 +0100 (BST) From: sean hewitt Subject: Moderation and PG Can I just say that I, too, support Toby 100% with his editing of this digest. Nearly every post is worth reading and fhe entire spectrum of points of view is covered in a literate, good-natured and thoughtful way. People moaning about the moderation simply haven't thought through their case, in my opinion. On to Mr Tea on Peter Gabriel: a few points on his journey through the PG albums. "The defining characteristic of the third album (which includes Biko & Games Without Frontiers) is the Phil Collins drum loop sound. At times you might be excused for thinking that Collins' own 'In the Air Tonight' has smuggled its way into the track listing" Er, Colllins' In The Air Tonight came year AFTER PG3 and was an obvious attempt to recreate the effect and atmosphere of PGs Intruder. Nothing else on PG3 sounds even remotely like In The Air Tonight. Also: the majority of drumming on this record is by Jerry Marotta. "On the fourth album, the bleeding-heart liberalism and world-music pollution that surfaced in Biko are starting to take over, and sadly, none of it is very interesting." OK, how many PG fans agree with that one? Personally, I reckon PG4 is one of the two best albums PG has ever made, fusing a totally innovative approach to rhythm and sampling with uniquely passionate melodies and vocals. I know I'm not alone - "none of it is very interesting" seems harsh, to say the least. I also object to the phrase "world music pollution" - what does that mean, exactly? Us: "Ultimately, it's all rather sterile, and there's not a single track on the album that doesn't outstay its welcome." The album's production is overdone and vague - I haven't heard the remaster yet but apparently it's an improvement - but there's some fantastic music on Us. Most of the tracks are great. "'Passion', the album you do have, is a movie soundtrack. Sometimes it's obviously Gabriel, but there's plenty that sounds like undiluted ethnic recordings. Those short tracks are great for padding out compilations, tho." Nothing on Passion is what you charmingly refer to as "undiluted ethnic recordings" - all are PG compositions incorporating elements or instrumentation from other cultures. Passion is the absolute best Peter Gabriel album - again innovative and passionate and melding diffeent influences in a way that no-one had done before and that even he has never managed since; it's music that isn't electronic western stuff or "world music" but a new form somewhere inbetween. (Rabbit Proof Fence is impressive but not as good as Passion, which really works as a piece of music separate from the film; RPF is a more straightforward soundtrack). If "bleeding heart liberalism", "world music pollution" and "undilurted ethnic recordings" really piss you off, maybe Peter Gabriel isn't quite the artist for you, though. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 06:45:10 EDT From: GORTAY at aol dot com Subject: Glam A reader wrote: 'I figured that this would be a good place to elicit some help. I love the >artsy lounge stuff of Roxy Music and even some of King Crimson's stuff [I'm >thinking of some stuff with Belew]. Are there any other good bands >lounge/glam bands to check out?'' Sorry if this repeats something already posted - a couple of ETs didn't arrive. Most Glam rock was just throwaway trash/pop manufactured bands made up of unemployed sessions musicians in cheap Woolworth's mascara managed by some evil svengali producer, recycling old rock'n'roll riffs for people who couldn't afford the drugs to help them through prog rock double album sets. As such it had a lot to recommend it but none of the bands (outside of Bowie/Bolan/Roxy) ever produced any music worth sitting through more than one side of a 7" single. However, moving away slightly, you might try the any of the first three Ultravox albums. The first was produced by Brian Eno and has clear affinity with the first couple of Roxy albums, although the 50s glam connotations are replaced with a neat proto punk ethos. The third album was produced by Connie Plank who did stuff with Can etc. There are also the early Japan albums which trod a similar path, although their jumping off point was more New York Dolls than Roxy Music. David Sylvian is supposed to have based his name on the Doll's guitarist Sylvain Sylvain. Although this kind of music was seen as very anti prog-rock at the time it is interesting that you can take a line from KC through Pete Sinfield producing the first Roxy album to Eno producing the first Ultravox album and another from the New York Doll's influencing early Japan to Sylvian working with Fripp. As to lounge music - well it depends what you wanna do in your lounge. You might want to look out for anything by James Chance, aka James White and the Blacks aka the Contortions and probably a zillion other aka's I don't know about. I have a feeling that James Chance appeared on the Eno produced "No New York" compilation with Lydia Lunch though I don't have the album any more so can't check. Another band in a similar vein were the Lounge Lizards who included Arto Lindsay and Anton Fier. They played a sort of fractured Thelonious Monk-on-acid jazz. However, the Lizards did share the dreaded EG management so you might not want to buy any of their albums in case you incur the wrath of Fripp. Hope this helps. Gordon Taylor. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:06:04 +0000 From: "lawrence moseley" Subject: Crafty Article /Edits/USA / Earthbound/ Fripp and Blondie / Hi all. First as far as I know that Crafty article is real. If someone made that all up my apolgies for gullibility but I thought I could not let that go without letting the ET community in on it. let's face it if it was afke then who? why? Is KC so socailly significant that someone fakes stuff like that. Possibly. Before it (censorship, moderation, editing, distilling etc) becomes a dead thread and Toby nails it, I also think Toby does a terrific job at editing this. ET is moderated, it says so at the start. Anyone remember that Anal Jab attack on ITCOTKC? I always wondered what sort of posts required moderating and there was a (typical(?)one Toby?) My 10 p before you censor this thread about moderate editting ;). Next. Lo and behold, the gatefold editions of USA and Earhbound showed up in a local store that normally I would not buy from (it is not good and it is HMV to boot but getting these early, well, quite something...) but I thought these were not out until September. I was going to get them and the Champaign Urbana Sessions. Now I'll have to get Summit else. Never had these elpees but now I have the CDs... Earthbound is...loud, clear and rough. The playing has a groove that appaprently did not resonate (me picking up Frippisms, my apologies to those who hate that...)with critix, Fripp and audience at the time. Too bad, a good precursor for the grooves of Tony Levin. Never quite understood how rhythm (aka groove)is a bad thing but then as a former 4 stringer I may be biased... Earthbound is, um, moderated. Fade outs and edits make me wonder just how long these jams could really go. Worthwhile, for the great playing (Mel Collins' sax is so lyrical! suprssed, no...happy...oh yes...) but not exactly hi-fi here. USA on the other hand is fine hi fi wise and performance wise. According to a review in the excellenyt booklets for these remasters that 21stCSM lacks energy. First. Bollocks to that. (Edit if you want Toby, I get a bit worked up at these critics at times!)These reviewers, what skills and qualifications do they have that they need to inflict us with crass observations? Still, to be fair most of the reviews are positive. This version (of 21SCM), like all the others blows the lid off the kettle. Quite structured and it is very powerful. USA with all the others (73 /74 line up is essential. What a CD. Great Fractured and we get Starless as the other bonus track. Bliss. Wouldn't have minded another improv to go with Asbury Park (as a bonus) but there I go being greedy. Love the covers as well... Which reminds me, thanks to Laurent Masse for clearing up that USA2 never happening thing. But now, how about USA2. Why not? Do that tour that has not been represented. A while back there was some discussion of RF being on Blondie tracks. (My ear candy is a bit of Blondie...) Anyway, I do not think it is his playing on 'One Way Or Another', that to me could be Keef and Ronnie (it isn't) knocking that great rhythm about. But what about 'Fade Away and Radiate? Unless I am much mistaken that is the certain and very identifiable 'fist' of RF adding his incendiary touches to a very intriguiing number. That reggae groove and hi-tech low key atmosphere has me wishing that it does not Fade Away. Not (Fade Away) for a long time, great track. Has groove and is edited... Incidentally Thrak was out as well, but I still have not worn out my Gold Cd so I had to let that rest awhile. Modertae my purchases in case the track extended too far... Th-th-that's all folks :) Lawrence ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 07:19:17 -0400 From: Paul Sky 2 Subject: John Miller John Miller was the artist Fripp chose for the cover paintings for many of his Soundscape albums, and who passed away in July. I remember hearing Fripp discuss Miller in an interview w/John Schaefer of New Sounds program on WNYC in NY. Fripp played Soundscapes two different years at the World Financial Center near the WTC as part of the New Sounds Live concert series and Schaefer was interested in the Soundscapes cover art. Fripp talked about how Miller was from an area near him in England (Cornwall, St. Ives, i.e. Western coast of England), and how moved he was when entering a church where he was to play Soundscapes and finding Miller's artwork hanging in the church and "resonating" and he began to weep. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:00:58 -0400 From: "Matthew Dunlop" Subject: Re: Censorship >Moderation is completely unnecessary, and in this case, largely >ineffective, partially because it's based on the opinions of a single >individual who decides what does or does not make a "decent" read, rather >than on some pre-established, majority agreed upon guidelines. Ok so what crawled up this guy's shorts and died? Not that I don't feel disappointed at the death of some threads (and at the enticing nature of the proclaimed "dead threads" that I missed), but this is a little too indignant for the nature of the forum. Also on the subject of dead threads may I bring up this thought... when live threads are popular we get at least a newsletter a day. Good for us, probably bad for Toby. Lately there are only a few threads and all have been very slow so we've gotten one or two a week. My point is that the more we're getting every week the more Toby has to edit, so lay off if he decides to kill a popular thread to cut down on the volume. Your response Toby was a good one... but how about addressing the point he made that I considered somewhat valid? >Yet spam from CD stores like the Artist Shop and local bands with no direct >connection to Crimson continue to clog the digests. Local bands... fine. Artist Shop.... highly annoying. I already somehow get this guy's horrendously formatted and very long updates (usually in more than one part) whenever they come out. I'm guessing he got my email the first time I posted. So we have a guy who's using the newsletter for a spamming list, and then the newsletter hosts his own advertisements? And so when i finally did think I might order something from him, I found out his website was so poorly designed and terribly executed I didn't feel safe sending him my money anyway. Anyway thanks for the hard work Toby. Those who don't appreciate it can leave. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 08:22:49 -0500 From: "DiMaso, Phil (Elk)" Subject: Ranking Albums Hello to All, The great thing about Crimson's music is you get different things out of it as time passes. Right now it would probably be: 1. Larks Tongue in Aspic 2. Red 3. Discipline 4. Starless and Bible Black 5. Thrak 6. In the Court of the Crimson King 7. Beat 8. Islands 9. Three of a Perfect Pair 10.The ConstruKction of Light 11. In the Wake of Poseidon 12. Lizard I am a huge Bill Bruford fan, and really miss his drumming in the band. Although I enjoyed TCOL, I am not a big fan of the V-Drums. Can't wait until Nuovo Metal comes out. Open Ears Create Open Minds, Phil DiMaso ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:59:19 -0400 From: Gary Davis Subject: Re: USA on more than vinyl At 02:19 AM 8/12/02 GMT, Bill wrote: >Gary Davis, in his artist's shop newsletter, mentions that "USA was only ever >released on vinyl." While we all appreciate Davis's enthusiasm, his statement >conflicts with my recollections of listening to USA in that wonderfully >ancient audio format, 8 track stereo. Ah, well, for that matter I suppose it could have existed on cassette as well. So I'll amend that description (which was actually DGM's description) to say that this is first time USA will receive a 'legitimate' CD release. Well, except for the one limited release in Pottsylvania ;-) Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com artshop at artist-shop dot com phone: 877-856-1158, 330-929-2056 fax:330-945-4923 INDEPENDENT PROGRESSIVE MUSIC!!! ************************************************************** Artist Shop Radio Check out the latest Artist Shop newsletter at http://www.artist-shop.com/news.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:07:22 -0500 From: wviland at thin-film dot com Subject: The Momur -- Adrians Wife Hates Crimson When I listen to 'The Momor' it seems its a bit of a satire. Adrian endlessly practicing Crimson type scales, while the wife (Martha I think) goes nuts. Breaks his favorite guitar, try's to kill him, and eventually yells, "STOP IT"!!!!!! at the end. Anyone think I'm close on this read? ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1005 *********************************