Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: moderator at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: moderator at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk #1004 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1004 Monday, 12 August 2002 Today's Topics: Re: P Gabriel About censorship on ET Re: suggestions Moderating USA on more than vinyl 'Censorship', moderating, Editing! Re: music suggestions Toby and censorship Bowie's glam & Gabriel's best Guitar Craft CD Trades/Album Rankings The Guitar Craft Seminar Re: Censorship/Moderation Re: Subject: Turn of the Night Watch Re: Millenial (sic) Congratulations Teen Crimheads ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 12:51:48 +0100 From: Mr Tea Subject: Re: P Gabriel This from Elephant Talk - dated 3-8-02 08.25 am: > Also, I am in the dark on Peter Gabriel. Apart from Passion, I haven't > heard any of his solo work (but love his work with Genesis). Where should I > start? With the Fripp-produced second album (includes Exposure, DIY, Mother of Violence). The sound quite lean and austere, and stands up well against some of his later over-produced stuff (like 'US'). The first album (including Moribund the Burgermeister & Solsbury Hill) is a little jokey in some places, and a bit florid in others. The version of Here Comes the Flood that Gabriel does on Fripp's Exposure album is a million times better than the power ballad rendition included here. The defining characteristic of the third album (which includes Biko & Games Without Frontiers) is the Phil Collins drum loop sound. At times you might be excused for thinking that Collins' own 'In the Air Tonight' has smuggled its way into the track listing, but none the less, this is the culmination of the journey that began with album 1, and there's much to enjoy. On the fourth album, the bleeding-heart liberalism and world-music pollution that surfaced in Biko are starting to take over, and sadly, none of it is very interesting. Then Peter ran out of things to not call his albums, and titled the next one 'So'. It has some nice pop moments (Sledgehammer foremost), but no sense of direction or coherence. By the 6th proper album 'US' he had also run out of songs. So he dressed it up in arty graphics and layer upon layer of lush production effects. Ultimately, it's all rather sterile, and there's not a single track on the album that doesn't outstay its welcome. 'Passion', the album you do have, is a movie soundtrack. Sometimes it's obviously Gabriel, but there's plenty that sounds like undiluted ethnic recordings. Those short tracks are great for padding out compilations, tho. Another soundtrack album, 'Birdy', is well worth a listen, and contains instrumental reworkings of some of his mainstream album tracks, plus some seriously shit-kicking percussive crescendos. Get this and the first three untitled albums, and you'll have everything you need. Regards Mr Tea ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 11:58:39 +0000 From: "Marcelo Rodriguez" Subject: About censorship on ET Hi everybody, I don't know if the following words will be useful or valid for anyone, as I have read some words abt Toby's censorship on ET. First, I want to pount out that I will always be against all kind of censorship. I live in Argentina, and we have a very bitter censorship cases for the last decades. But in this case, I'm not so sure about what to think, because, on one hand, as I said, I don't like censorship, but on the other, perhaps it could be used (in the right dose, of course!) in order to mantain the level of quality and seriousness of ET. WE should not forget that, as this is a worldwide web, it could be very easy to send silly and rubbish messages, and I guess it should be quite upsetting for Toby and all the staff to waste time selecting good messages from a great quantity. To sum up, I agree with the idea of filtering messages, but please keep a good level of acceptance of differents opinions and views about topics and be very careful on that task. Thanks a lot. Marcelo. MSN. Mas Util cada Dia. http://www.msn.es/intmap/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 09:29:22 -0500 From: Don Hosek Subject: Re: suggestions >Subject: suggestions... > >I figured that this would be a good place to elicit some help. I love the >artsy lounge stuff of Roxy Music and even some of King Crimson's stuff [I'm >thinking of some stuff with Belew]. Are there any other good bands >lounge/glam bands to check out? > >Also, I am in the dark on Peter Gabriel. Apart from Passion, I haven't >heard any of his solo work (but love his work with Genesis). Where should I >start? Well, if you liked Passion, you should definitely pick up: -Passion Sources (compilation of material which was inspirational in writing Passion) -Birdy (PG's first soundtrack, which features recyclings of many of his songs into more soundtrack-like music) -Long Walk Home (PG's latest album, which has him doing with Australian music what Passion did with middle-eastern music) In discovering his song-based solo stuff, I'd start with PG1 (aka "car") More stuff to check out would include Saro Cosentino's Ones and Zeros. -dh -- Don Hosek, bassist http://don.dream-in-color.net/ Dream in Color - http://www.dream-in-color.net/ http://www.mp3.com/DreamInColor/ 312/953-3679 don at dream-in-color dot net "Nobody eats their parents, they're indigestible." - Robert Dick ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 12:30:39 -0300 (ART) From: Ronald Miklos Vogel Subject: Moderating I personally agree with Toby about censorship. If ET would be just like other lists or newsletters that I abbandoned because of the contents... Ronald Vogel Yahoo! PageBuilder - O super editor para criacao de sites: e gratis, facil e rapido. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 11:50:00 EDT From: Bknt at aol dot com Subject: USA on more than vinyl Gary Davis, in his artist's shop newsletter, mentions that "USA was only ever released on vinyl." While we all appreciate Davis's enthusiasm, his statement conflicts with my recollections of listening to USA in that wonderfully ancient audio format, 8 track stereo. I remember purchasing the recording when I worked one long, hot summer behind the counter of an ice cream shop at 72nd Street and Amsterdam Avenue in Manhattan. The shop's sound system consisted of a "home-se" 8-track system, an AM/FM radio combined with an eight track tape player, with two decorative speakers that would have looked, and certainly sounded, better if they had been hanging from a pole lamp. Though I played the tape because I adored its passion, anger and overwhelming impression that whatever was happening on the stage was a heroic defiance of the audience's expectations (can we forget the bloater who shouts out, "Boogie!" at the beginning of Exiles, then let's out a howl of ecstacy alarmingly similar to those heard in portable toilets at the first Woodstock music festival?) management prefered the tapes of other co-workers, especially freckled flamboyance of Elton John's Good-Bye Yellow Brick Road, until it was observed that USA drove customers from the store with astonishing speed. This was a benefit, because, as those who have marveled at the colorful discontinuities, gastronomic violation and combinatoric coincidences inherent in the placement of oblate spheroids of blueberry cheesecake and cantaloupe fudge swirl atop a "cake" cone, the "live" ice cream business is a high volume, low margin grind: a torrent of customers must come in, spend their money and flee with the product in reasonably appetizing condition so as to present to passers-by an appealing visual enticement. It is also essential that those who have been served an ice cream cone, leave the premises as quickly as possible because management would only replace cones whose ice cream had fallen off INSIDE the store. Thus, the oddly edited musical complexities recorded in Asbury Park, played through a medium that was always questionable and now indefensible (can any of us forget those arbitrary punctuations, when the music faded out, we heard a BIG CLICK followed by a fade in, reminding us that all art, even works of inspired genius moderated by corporate greed, can be vandalized in order to be sold), influenced the contractural relationship between the purveyor and the consumer, thus, redefining the dropped ice cream, and its discontented dispossessee, into an act of God, a force majeure or what is more commonly known on the streets of New York City as a cryin' shame. Bill Kent ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 14:21:06 -0500 From: "Lee Gray" Subject: 'Censorship', moderating, Editing! Richard writes: [...] > Call it what you like, it all > boils down to censorship in the end - the filtering out of 'undesirable' > statements. Toby responds: > I guess the only way I can truly make people understand why I > believe that moderation -- CENSORSHIP -- is essential, in order to > produce a decent newsletter, is to show you the kind of posts that get > censored.. er, I mean, "moderated". Jeez, I don't understand what the problem is with this "censorship issue." If it's so hard to understand, compare it to any paper publication, which always has an *editor*. I read a moderated newsgroup which has an non-moderated counterpart. I've attempted to read the non-moderated one, but it's mostly a free-for-all with lots of garbage - and not just spam. I mean tons of just crap posts, which are a major waste of my time. Toby's only human, and may well censor something that "shouldn't" have been on occasion, but I think that's a small price to pay for the overall quality of ET. I haven't done much searching for King Crimson info on the 'net since this newsletter and companion Web site meet that need so well, but I'd be willing to be you could find lots of it elsewhere if the censorship here is that distasteful. My .02. Lee ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 14:41:25 -0500 From: "Lee Gray" Subject: Re: music suggestions > Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 16:11:49 -0500 > From: "Jonathon Smith" > Subject: suggestions... > > Also, I am in the dark on Peter Gabriel. Apart from Passion, I haven't > heard any of his solo work (but love his work with Genesis). Where should I > start? > > Thanks. > > Jonathon Hi Jonathon, Passion is an excellent work, but quite different from Gabriel's earlier releases. I have the first four self-titled albums, "So," and "Passion." You really can't go wrong with any of the first four. I would HIGHLY recommend the third (the new remaster subtitles it "Melt" because of his melting face on the cover) and the fourth, "Security." I don't think any of his solo material sounds much like his Genesis work (which I also love, but I think his solo vocals are much stronger), but if you like his vocals and talent, you won't be disappointed with those. "So" was his commercial break-through and is not bad, but was a bit of a let-down for me and kinda why I never bought much more. You would surely recognize some songs from that one: "Sledgehammer," "Big Time," and maybe "Red Rain." I've heard bits of "Us," and it's not bad either, but I always felt he was kind of treading water by then. I should probably give it another chance, though. Hope that helps, Lee ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 09:56:05 -0600 From: Guido Vacano Subject: Toby and censorship I might as well chime in before Toby declares this a "dead thread"! :-) I'm very much in favor of Toby's activities as moderator, and censor. Why? 1) I'm on other lists that are loosely moderated, or not moderated at all (the Hawkwind/BOC list, boc-l, is an excellent example). The signal to noise ratio on these lists is extremely low. It's also extremely low in the non-moderated Usenet lists. Unfortunately, people tend to believe that the right to speak freely is not accompanied by any responsibility to value that right, and use it in a sensible, meaningful way. I subscribe to ET because it is (usually) interesting and informative. It is not a platform for raving idiots and obnoxious merchants. That's a good thing. 2) Toby is not Draconian in his censorship. He kills threads that have been beaten into the ground (sometimes prematurely, but he IS human, and has shown that he's willing to admit his mistakes), and he does not post that which is extremely off topic, extremely rude, or extremely content free. I'm glad he wades through the crap and gets rid of it for me. I think he deserves a medal for doing that, or at least an eight-pack of Guinness. :-) I have better thing to do in my life than read tons of drivel, hoping to find something worthwhile. 3) His censorship (which is a strong word for what he's actually doing. Toby is NOT a member of the "thought police") does not in any way limit your right to speak freely, and is therefore constitutionally correct. There is nothing in the Constitution that says or implies that Toby has to post everything submitted to ET. The Constitution is taking quite a beating these days, but it's not Toby's fault. :-) My advice to those of you who want unlimited free speech with your bits of Crimson related material is to start your own mailing list or newsgroup. Then, say whatever you want. Thank you Toby. I REALLY appreciate what you do for ET. Guido Vacano ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 17:18:18 -0600 From: "Mary" Subject: Bowie's glam & Gabriel's best >I figured that this would be a good place to elicit some help. I love the artsy >lounge stuff of Roxy Music and even some of King Crimson's stuff [I'm thinking >of some stuff with Belew]. Are there any other good bands lounge/glam bands to >check out? >Also, I am in the dark on Peter Gabriel. Apart from Passion, I haven't heard >any of his solo work (but love his work with Genesis). Where should I start?< In my honest opinion, the best glam outside of Roxy Music would be David Bowieis glam stuff, from 1970 to 1973: The Man Who Sold the World, The Rise & Fall of Ziggy Stardust, Hunky Dory, and Aladdin Sane. And, although not glam, donit forget his even better albums with Brian Eno and/or Robert Fripp from 1977 to 1980: Low, Heroes, Lodger, and finally, Scary Monsters (and Super Creeps). For Peter Gabriel, my favorite is the excellent Peter Gabriel III (melting face). My second favorite is the one that followed it, "Security," (tribal).. PG I (wet car) is overproduced and PG II (fingernails raking the air in front of him) was underproduced by Fripp. Both of these albums contain some good songs, but are not quite up to the mark of PG III and Security. SO and US are both okay, but I didnit find them as interesting as what preceded them. And, you already have Passion, which I would I would rate as very good (after PG III and Security). Clear as mud? Bronco Billy Jacobson np: Sons of the Pioneers: "Tumbling Tumbleweeds" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 21:19:37 -0400 From: "Ken Montgomery" Subject: Guitar Craft Is that post on the Guitar Craft experience for real? I'm sorry but that is just bizarre. Considering how Fripp can't even stand a bit of light shining on him (anyone remember the last tour?) or a few flash photos, how can he condone the ridiculous heckling that was described in the article? The whole thing sounds largely staged to further build Fripp's mystique. If he weren't a great guitarist/leader of one of the world's best bands, how would he be seen? Monty ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 21:38:26 -0700 From: "Alec Sugar" Subject: CD Trades/Album Rankings Greetings and sorry about your rist, Toby. First of all, I have three albums available to trade: B'Boom, Thrakatak, and Tony Levin's Pieces of the Sun. I'd be willing to trade for A) any collecter's club album B) you negotiate. If interested please contact me at membran at mind dot net. The second item is about the request for album rankings. Here's mine (from favorite down): 1. Red 2. Discipline 3. Larks' Tongues in Aspic 4. Starless and Bible Black 5. In the Wake of Poseidon 6. Lizard 7. Three of a Perfect Pair 8. In the Court of the Crimson King 9. Islands 10. Beat 11. The ConstruKction of Light 12. THRAK ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 07:44:17 -0400 From: Dan Gallagher Subject: The Guitar Craft Seminar Many thanks to Ed Decker's feature on that Guitar Craft seminar outside Santa Barbara, which was rather entertaining, though a bit reminiscent of those army boot camp stories and their sadistic drill instructors that you hear so often from military "initiates".... Making music requires the mustering of a great deal of creative energy, but it also requires the will to discipline that energy in the service of the Higher Good, or -- in this case -- the finished composition or performance. Of course, discipline isn't something you can just pull out of your arse when you're in the mood...it's something that you either have developed over time, or it's something that you have to have slapped into you. Needless to say, most students of Guitar Craft appear to require the more drastic approach. Though the end result of the seminars certainly justifies the means, it's a little bit disconcerting that the published memories of Guitar Craft aren't along the lines of "a midnight improvisation that lasted 4 hours and resulted in an amazing song" but instead refer to "freezing one's butt off while throwing fruit at stage-struck musical novices"...... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 15:11:02 +0100 From: Steve Moore Subject: Re: Censorship/Moderation The censorship/moderation is what makes this newsletter readable. Without Toby's delicate hand it would swiftly degenerate into a morass of off-topic drivel and 'me too' comments. Ultimately, it's Toby's newsletter - not a public newsgroup - and he can do whatever he wants with it. Personally, I feel his moderation usually strikes the right balance between keeping threads going long enough to be interesting and stamping out old, boring or repetetive threads (like the 'censorship' thread itself. Feel free to censor this one Mr Moderator!) __Steve__ > Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:18:13 -0000 > From: Richard dot REES-JONES at nao dot gsi dot gov dot uk > Subject: Re: censorship > The quotation marks around the word 'censored' appear to indicate > that Toby doesn't believe that what he is doing amounts to censorship. > No doubt he would rather describe it as 'moderating'. Call it what > you like, it all boils down to censorship in the end - the filtering > out of 'undesirable' statements. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 10:29:58 -0400 From: BARLETB at Nationwide dot com Subject: Re: Subject: Turn of the Night Watch I haven't compared the integrity of the 2 songs, but I will agree that Steve Howe's playing on this piece is nothing short of PHENOMANAL! Steve has never been one to "grandstand" in my humble drummer's opinion! But this particular piece of music just shows his dedication to the instrument!! (for an even better read, I suggest picking up the Magna Carta (yeah..I know) release "Tales from Yesterday" which is a "tribute" of sorts to the Music of Yes, but has a very interesting duet version of Steve playing this piece with Annie Haslan singing it. MUCH better than the original! Worth that price of the disc alone! Also, regarding the "moderating & censorship" I have to agree that Toby is doing a fine job keeping the "trolls and riff raff" away from our gentle minds! I never felt that he has restrained anyone's opinion on most matters, but has kept the "crap" to a minimum. (I've never seen a post that just merely stated that "KC SUCKS" or BOB IS AN IDIOT" or things that are similar in nature like on a lot of other forums that are just inciting a wrath of invective to come FLYING back at them, for the insipidly twisted pleasure of the original post-or) And I DO appreciate his "moderating" of DEAD THREADS!! I mean how much longer could the "MY Girlfriend REALLY hates KC with a passion vs. MY Girlfriend really LOVES KC" debate go on! Haha!! So "Three cheer's and tiger" for him! (sorry?obscure Bug's Bunny reference ) Have fun all!!! Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:32:10 +0100 From: "Richard Heath" Subject: Re: Millenial (sic) Congratulations In ET 1000, Brian Thomson wrote: "Now that the costs of getting on to the Internet, financial and technical, have dropped so far, it is inevitable that the quality of debate will decline too." Frankly, the idea that (a) the rich, or (b) geeks necessarily have greater insight and more interesting comments to make about music is nonsensical, elitist and offensive. Personally, I find the debates on ET stimulating and thought-provoking at times, and embarrassingly banal at others (the - thankfully terminated - "hey, my girlfriend likes KC too!" thread being one recent example). As someone whose job involves extending access to the internet to the less advantaged members of our society, I believe its democratising potential, in terms of access to information and communication, is something to be championed. ET represents a global community of those with a shared interest in King Crimson - and let's face it, most of us don't meet very many in the flesh ;-). To seek to limit this, in the way that Mr Thomson appears to, is not only based on spurious assumptions, but also entirely perverse in spirit. Someone once said we read to know we are not alone: that certainly seems a good reason for reading ET. Long may it continue and, I hope, continue to grow. Richard Heath ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 19:19:33 +1000 (EST) From: Will Dayble Subject: Teen Crimheads I'm another teen fan... I'm 17 and I only got into KC a bit over a year ago. I've been a Tull fan for as long as I can remember, and smatterings of various 60s/70s stuff seem to creep into my listening time occasionally. Primarily however, I've been listening to the more heavy end of what all my friends call "nutter" music, namely the Dillinger Escape Plan, Devin Townsend etc, plus all the other more recent prog adventures, Liquid Tension etc. It's actually quite surprizing the amount of young guys (and gals) listening to records from their parents collections... :) - Will. http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To - Get the best out of your PC! ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1004 *********************************